May 23, 1956

?

Some hon. Members:

No.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
Permalink
LIB

Louis-René Beaudoin (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Speaker:

I do not want to prolong the point unduly, but I would like to have a chance to take a look at the references that have been referred to. I shall ask the Deputy Speaker to take my place while debate may be carried on, and I shall go and look at those-

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
Permalink
?

Some hon. Members:

Oh.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
Permalink
LIB

Louis-René Beaudoin (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Speaker:

I think we shall gain more by patience than by anxiety. I want to have a look at these references because I take it that it is the contention of hon. members that, because of these various precedents, where some short discussion has taken place, it makes the motion debatable. My contention is that if it does not come within the specifications of standing order 32, it is not debatable. At any rate, I want to go and look at the references that the Leader of the Opposition and the hon. member for Kamloops have quoted. To make sure that I have them right, I have one on April 16, 1948, pages 3041 and 3042, and would the hon. member for Kamloops be good enough to repeat the numbers of the pages for the other two references?

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
Permalink
PC

Edmund Davie Fulton

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

I think they were pages 2207 and 2411 of Hansard of 1948. I can confirm that with Your Honour later. I believe also that there is a passage in May on this matter, on page 526, under the heading of "Debate thereon."

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
Permalink
LIB

Louis-René Beaudoin (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Speaker:

I would not place much reliance on the subject headings because over there they have provisions for notices which we do not have. Although it may be brought to a debate in the United Kingdom house, I do not think the same provisions apply to us.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
Permalink
PC

Edmund Davie Fulton

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

I shall not read it, but I would refer Your Honour to page 526 of May. Those are the authorities that occur to me at the moment.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
Permalink
LIB

Walter Edward Harris (Minister of Finance and Receiver General; Leader of the Government in the House of Commons; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Mr. Harris:

Mr. Speaker, there is a motion before the house. I therefore move:

That the house do now proceed to government order No. 2.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
Permalink
PC

Donald Methuen Fleming

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fleming:

More closure. One gag and one guillotine after another.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
Permalink
?

An hon. Member:

Why not adjourn parliament?

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
Permalink
PC

Edmund Davie Fulton

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

There is a motion now before the house. I think a substantive motion is always a superseding motion, in other words one that takes priority. We have had a discussion of that over the motion of Your Honour to leave the chair. The motion for Your Honour to leave the chair can only be put, in fact, after the orders of the day have been put, and I submit that no other superseding motion can be moved at this stage while the discussion in under way on the particular motion now before the house. It must have priority.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
Permalink
CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles:

Mr. Speaker, one other

point of order. If the motion of the Minister of Finance is regarded by Your Honour as in order, that means you are assuming that the motion before you is a debatable motion.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
Permalink
LIB

Louis-René Beaudoin (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Speaker:

I hope I shall not have to decide that point; but, while I am asking the house to give me a chance to look at the precedents that have been quoted, I want to say that in my view, if it were not my genuine desire to deal with the utmost fairness with respect to this particular matter, as I do with respect to any other, I would make a ruling now, and my ruling would be that this motion is not debatable. But I am giving latitude to debate while I go and look those up, and I shall be able to do that only inasmuch as I leave the chair. In the meantime, while this latitude of debate was being accorded, the minister has indulged in the same sort of latitude and said, "I shall move a motion. While this is allowed to be debated, I shall move my motion."

But I should like to ask the Minister of Finance if he would be good enough not to press this motion. At this moment I should like the house to consider that I am concerned not so much with procedural wrangles but to make sure that whatever motions are being made are dealt with in a proper manner. If hon. members are going to concentrate their efforts on throwing all kinds of motions my way, I want to tell them that they risk,-if they insist that

I make snappy rulings, I shall make them to the best of my ability-but if it happens that in the future they are not considered as being proper, then we will have precedents established that will not be the right ones.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
Permalink
PC

George Alexander Drew (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Drew:

Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that Your Honour has said that if hon. members are throwing all sorts of motions at the Chair then members must accept the consequences, I would point out that this is the only time this motion can be made. There was no time before; there will be no time afterwards. Your Honour has already accepted that. Without in any way questioning the intent of what Your Honour said, I would not want any suggestion that this is just a motion thrown out for the purpose of adding a motion to these debates.

This is a motion which has itself been used by the Minister of Trade and Commerce on another occasion with the explanation as to why he thought it was appropriate. I would hope that it would be realized that there is a fundamental reason for considering this carefully. Certainly, whether it be to adjourn this discussion or to permit the discussion to proceed, I would strongly urge that Your Honour should not make any hasty decision, because this is something that has been dealt with and the practice has been accepted. I would certainly regret very greatly that any hasty ruling now would deny a long-established privilege to give instructions at this point before a committee goes into discussion of the bill, if in fact there is reason for dividing that bill as we suggest.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
Permalink
LIB

Walter Edward Harris (Minister of Finance and Receiver General; Leader of the Government in the House of Commons; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Mr. Harris:

Mr. Speaker, I quite appreciate the position in which you find yourself at the moment, as I am sure all hon. members do. It seems to me that if you were to rule that a motion presented by the Leader of the Opposition is non-debatable, then we would in fairly short order dispose of it by a vote. If on the other hand, you were to hold that it was debatable, you would have to deal with the motion I have presented to you.

Under those circumstances it would seem that if you feel the ruling which you want to make is a ruling on the first motion, as I presume you do, it would perhaps be in the best interests of ordinary procedure in the house, in view of the time we may take in coming to this question, to allow for a time of suspension for Your Honour to consider a ruling on the first motion of the Leader of the Opposition. It is a little unusual, perhaps, for the house to remain in what might be called suspended animation

23, 1956 4267

Northern Ontario Pipe Line Corporation while you consider the situation; nevertheless it seems to me that is all that could be called for at the moment.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
Permalink
LIB

Louis-René Beaudoin (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Speaker:

I am positive that this motion is not debatable. I am sure that it cannot be debatable at this time, because you cannot have debate on a motion without notice. Here is a motion for which debate is certainly not provided for by standing order 32. What puzzles me is that I am quoted three precedents where, they say, five pages of Hansard covered the debate that took place.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
Permalink
LIB

Clarence Decatur Howe (Minister of Defence Production; Minister of Trade and Commerce)

Liberal

Mr. Howe (Port Arthur):

Mr. Speaker, may I call your attention to the fact that due notice was given that that motion would be made. It was given on second reading. In fact, an undertaking was given to the house.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
Permalink
PC

Donald Methuen Fleming

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fleming:

No formal notice.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
Permalink
LIB

Louis-René Beaudoin (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Speaker:

Precisely what I thought might have been the case.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
Permalink
?

An hon. Member:

No.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
Permalink

May 23, 1956