March 19, 1956

CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles:

There are a few words I wish to say on clause 1, but if the sponsor wishes to speak I would be glad to yield to him. If not, I may say that when the hon. member for Churchill spoke to this bill on second reading, he had occasion to refer to a relationship that might exist between this company and Trans-Canada Pipe Lines. I began to wonder whether there might be any more connection than the one the member indicated when he spoke on March 2 of this year. Accordingly, I did what is often done around here and went to such well known documents as Moody's Industrials, the Directory of Directors, the Financial Post Survey of Industrials, Who's Who in America, and Moody's Public Utilities.

I went to these documents for the purpose of trying to find out just who were the individuals who were tied in to this company. As the member for Churchill stated, the company which is sponsoring Hydrocarbons Pipeline Limited is Canadian Hydrocarbons Limited. I found in one of the documents to which I have referred a list of the directors of Canadian Hydrocarbons Limited. It is true that four or five of them are residents of Canada, but at least two of them are residents of the United States. One of them is Mr. J. R. Dempsey, of Libertyville, Illinois. I have not as yet run down his pedigree. Another is Mr. C. S. Strike, who lives at West Hartford, Connecticut. I find that this Mr. C. S. Strike is also president of F. H. McGraw and Company of Hartford, as well as being president or chairman of the board of a number of other companies. F. H. McGraw and Company is associated with the Power Corporation of Canada in ownership of the F. H. McGraw Company of Canada. The president of the Power Corporation of Canada is Mr. P. A. Thomson, a member of Nesbitt, Thomson and Company of Winnipeg, which is now known as N. T. Investments Limited. That firm, N. T. Investments Limited, I understand, holds something of the order of 70,000 shares in Trans-Canada Pipe Lines Limited.

Private Bills

I find also, Mr. Chairman, that the same Power Corporation of Canada has a substantial interest in the Anglo-Canadian Oil Company, which also has an interest in Trans-Canada Pipe Lines Limited. I find also that the chairman and treasurer of Anglo-Canadian is Mr. H. R. Milner, who is also on the board of directors of Trans-Canada Pipe Lines Limited.

It so happens that I have on my desk quite a number of sheets of paper, and I have one of these interesting charts showing all of the involvements of these people. I do not intend to go into the full details, but I think I have given enough to indicate that there seems to be building up once again in this whole pipe-line business-both gas and oil-another of those interlocking directorates where a few people get a stranglehold on something that is pretty important to the people of Canada as a whole.

The other day the Minister of Agriculture expressed some misplaced anxiety lest we in this party were not still concerned about the 50 big shots of whom we used to speak some years ago. We are afraid, Mr. Chairman, that in this field some super big shots are being built up by these various companies that parliament is incorporating, through these charters that are being granted. I suspect the day will come when we shall find that parliament has facilitated by a number of these simple little bills the building up of an octopus in the oil and gas and fuel and power industry in this country. We feel that this house does not know enough about all this business to be called upon to deal with bills of this kind.

Topic:   PRIVATE BILLS
Subtopic:   HYDROCARBONS PIPELINE LIMITED
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Clause agreed to. Clauses 2 to 4 inclusive agreed to. On clause 5-Pipe lines legislation to apply.


PC

Douglas Scott Harkness

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Harkness:

On this clause I am

interested in finding out whether this proposed pipe line will be a common carrier or not. I am not a member of the committee; I was not in on the committee sessions, but I understand from those who were there that this question did not come up. This clause reads:

The company shall have all the powers, privileges and immunities conferred by, and be subject to all the limitations, liabilities and provisions of the Pipe Lines Act, and any other general legislation relating to pipe lines enacted by parliament with respect to the transportation of crude oil and other liquid and gaseous hydrocarbons.

I think section 38 of the Pipe Lines Act provides that the board of transport commissioners may declare any oil or gas pipe line as a common carrier. I presume that would be done on the initiative either of

Private Bills

sortie person interested or of the government. As far as oil pipe lines for which charters have been granted so far are concerned, I think it is provided, not in the act itself but by the government indicating to the board of transport commissioners that they should declare that the pipe line should be a common carrier. I should like to know what the situation will be in connection with this particular pipe line.

Topic:   PRIVATE BILLS
Subtopic:   HYDROCARBONS PIPELINE LIMITED
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LIB

George Dyer Weaver

Liberal

Mr. Weaver:

With regard to the question which the hon. member for Calgary North has just asked, this company would be subject to the provisions of the Pipe Lines Act, and this pipe line would be in the same position as other pipe lines which have been approved here. I am sure, from the discussions I have had with the sponsors, that within the limits for which it is designed they will be only too happy that this should be considered a common carrier.

It should be remembered that this pipe line will carry only that narrow range of products between what is ordinarily considered as petroleum and natural gas on the petroleum scale. Roughly, that would include naphtha, propane and butane, and it would include also refined gasoline. It will be realized that these products could not be carried in a petroleum gas line or a natural gas line.

This pipe line is to be from six to eight inches in size and the quantity of these particular products would not be as great as petroleum and natural gas. It will require a good deal of gasoline to be transported to make this a paying proposition and enable it to operate in this important field which is so beneficial to the whole gas and oil industry.

Topic:   PRIVATE BILLS
Subtopic:   HYDROCARBONS PIPELINE LIMITED
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PC

Douglas Scott Harkness

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Harkness:

I accept what the hon. member for Churchill has said, that this pipe line will require some gasoline to be carried through it in addition to butane and propane. It is suggested that that will have to be done in order to make it a profitable operation. However, I do not think that that answers my question as to whether it is going to be a common carrier.

If it is not to be a common carrier it would place the company operating this pipe line and the gas and other companies with which it happens to be associated in a very preferred position as compared with other companies producing propane or butane. It might mean that those other companies could sell their propane and butane only to the operators of this pipe line or to the oil companies associated with the pipe line. That

[Mr. Harkness.1

is the point I wanted to get clear and I should like to have the sponsor answer that question.

Topic:   PRIVATE BILLS
Subtopic:   HYDROCARBONS PIPELINE LIMITED
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LIB

George Dyer Weaver

Liberal

Mr. Weaver:

At this moment I cannot speak definitely. If the hon. member desires a definite answer perhaps the committee could rise and report progress and I would be glad to get definite information in the meantime. There is no doubt in my own mind on that point.

Topic:   PRIVATE BILLS
Subtopic:   HYDROCARBONS PIPELINE LIMITED
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PC

Douglas Scott Harkness

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Harkness:

I would appreciate it very much if that action could be taken because I think this is an important point which should be cleared up before the charter is finally granted.

Clause stands.

Clauses 6 to 10 inclusive agreed to.

Topic:   PRIVATE BILLS
Subtopic:   HYDROCARBONS PIPELINE LIMITED
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LIB

William Alfred Robinson (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

The Chairman:

Shall I rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again this day?

Progress reported.

Topic:   PRIVATE BILLS
Subtopic:   HYDROCARBONS PIPELINE LIMITED
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MONA MARGARET MCCASTLIN ADAMS

LIB

Harry Peter Cavers

Liberal

Mr. H. P. Cavers (for Mr. Henderson) moved

the second reading of Bill No. 161, for the relief of Mona Margaret McCastlin Adams.

Topic:   MONA MARGARET MCCASTLIN ADAMS
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CCF

Alexander Malcolm Nicholson

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. A. M. Nicholson (Mackenzie):

Mr. Speaker, I should like to draw the attention of the house to the fact that this case originates in Hull, just across the river. Some critical remarks have been made with regard to the evidence given by certain investigators in other cases and I should like to pay a tribute to the investigators who appeared before the Senate committee in connection with this particular case. One investigator was asked the following question and gave the following answer:

Q. Would you describe to the members of the committee the condition of the house-what you saw at that time?

A. It was a very small dirty shack, wooden shack, with, only one room, square shack, no separate rooms, just one main room, and it was simply a house of poverty, a shack you might find some old hermit living in-filthy and poor, no furnishings at all; an old stove, and decrepit old bed, and an old couch behind a curtain, and the couch was filled up with junk and all sorts of articles.

A little later on he was asked about his investigations and he replied as follows:

At the beginning I asked this young girl her age and she said, "I think I am near 18," and I said, "Aren't you closer to 16?" and she said, "Yes, maybe, but I do not know my age, and nobody knows my age," and then I asked her if she was living there-if Mr. Bill Adams was keeping her there against her will, and I explained very carefully what I meant by that. I said, "Does he make you live here or would you rather live some place else?" and she seemed like a very bright child and told me she was living there because she wanted to and, furthermore, because

she had no other place to live, and I asked her where her mother was, and she said, "I have no mother, I have an adopted mother."

I think we all feel that it is a tragedy when a 14-year old girl is forced by economic circumstances to live in an environment like that. I am sure that the honourable senators who reviewed the case were deeply moved by the evidence, but it is obvious that the parliament of Canada cannot do anything about the housing conditions or social problems which are presented by this particular case. I am not opposing the passing of this particular bill, but I submit it is a reflection upon this country when almost within sight of the parliament buildings there should exist conditions such as those described in the evidence in this particular bill. We have no authority to do anything about the girl, who apparently is a bright girl and is about 16 years of age.

Topic:   MONA MARGARET MCCASTLIN ADAMS
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Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to the standing committee on miscellaneous private bills.


LIB

Louis-René Beaudoin (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Speaker:

Can all the other divorce bills be taken in one motion?

Topic:   MONA MARGARET MCCASTLIN ADAMS
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?

Some hon. Members:

Agreed.

Topic:   MONA MARGARET MCCASTLIN ADAMS
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SECOND READINGS-SENATE BILLS

LIB

Louis-René Beaudoin (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Speaker:

The hon. member for Lincoln (Mr. Cavers) for the hon. member for Park-dale (Mr. Hunter) moves, seconded by the hon. member for Portage-Neepawa (Mr. Weir), that these divorce bills Nos. 162 to 164 inclusive and 169 to 188 inclusive be read the second time. Is it agreed?

Topic:   SECOND READINGS-SENATE BILLS
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CCF

Erhart Regier

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Regier:

I thought that we were referring only to Nos. 162 to 164. I did wish to say something on order No. 10 and order No. 28.

Topic:   SECOND READINGS-SENATE BILLS
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LIB

Louis-René Beaudoin (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Speaker:

Would it be agreeable to pass the others with the exclusion of those two?

Topic:   SECOND READINGS-SENATE BILLS
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?

Some hon. Members:

Agreed.

Bill No. 162, for the relief of Regis Edouard Gosselin.-Mr. Henderson.

Bill No. 163, for the relief of William Boychuck.-Mr. Henderson.

Bill No. 164, for the relief of Edna Betty Berendt Payment.-Mr. Henderson.

Bill No. 169, for the relief of Leona- Jennie Impey Mella.-Mr. Henderson.

Bill No. 171, for the relief of Florence Mintz Etinson.-Mr. Henderson.

Bill No. 172, for the relief of Jeanne Yvonne Gaouyat Leroy.-Mr. Henderson.

Bill No. 173, for the relief of Adrienne Rozenbaum Melzak.-Mr. Henderson.

Bill No. 174, for the relief of Joan Louise Squires Connolly.-Mr. Henderson.

Private Bills

Bill No. 175, for the relief of Carol May Burch Squires.-Mr. Henderson.

Bill No. 176, for the relief of Irene Raab Agoston.-Mr. Henderson.

Bill No. 177, for the relief of Joan Marshall Bougie.-Mr. Henderson.

Bill No. 178, for the relief of Heather Thornton Williamson.-Mr. Henderson.

Bill No. 179, for the relief of Helen Louise Hancox Fray.-Mr. Henderson.

Bill No. 180, for the relief of John Wallace Herbert.-Mr. Henderson.

Bill No. 181, for the relief of Angeline Sperdakos Trakas.-Mr. Henderson.

Bill No. 182, for the relief of Sheelagh Duffin Bennett.-Mr. Henderson.

Bill No. 183, for the relief of Ruth Alister Creighton Jones.-Mr. Henderson.

Bill No. 184, for the relief of Doris Lillian Doughty Dick.-Mr. Henderson.

Bill No. 185, for the relief of Joan Etta Young Campbell.-Mr. Henderson.

Bill No. 186, for the relief of Doris Evelyn Hirsch Stephen.-Mr. Henderson.

Bill No. 187, for the relief of Luvina Mallet Lambert.-Mr. Henderson.

Topic:   SECOND READINGS-SENATE BILLS
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CCF

Erhart Regier

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Regier:

Mr. Speaker, I wish to refer

to bill No. 170 and later to Bill No. 188, order No. 10 and order No. 28.

Topic:   SECOND READINGS-SENATE BILLS
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March 19, 1956