Mr. Nickle:

-I find that section 15 of the Defence Production Act gives the minister the power to make loans or advances to or to guarantee the repayment of loans or advances made to a person for the purpose of providing assistance for the construction, acquisition, extension and so on of a great host of items including manufacture, production, finishing, assembling, processing, transportation and so forth.

I should like to get from the minister, whose present policy or present reported policy is known, some information as to whether or not a year or so ago he made use of the powers vested in him under this act to make a pledge to the backers of a pipe line, committing his government and, through his government, the taxpayers of Canada, to financial support of an uneconomic project. It appears that during the year that elapsed between the time that pledge or commitment was made by the minister-

Mr. Howe (Pori Arthur):

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is not only completely out of order but he is raising a slander based on another matter. Let us have a little bit of order in this debate.

Mr. Fleming:

It is proper discussion on a section of the bill.

Mr. Nickle:

There is no slander at all

involved in this, Mr. Speaker. I have a high regard for the minister. What I am asking is simply this. Did he make use of the powers vested in him under this act to make a pledge of financial assistance to Trans-Canada Pipe Lines Limited in the spring of 1954?

Mr. Howe (Port Arthur):

That is a slander.

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

Order. The Minister of Defence Production raised a point of order. The hon. member for Calgary South (Mr. Nickle) for some time now has been dealing perhaps more with pipe-line policy than with the principle of second reading of this defence production bill. I do not think it is sufficient to refer to a section in the original act and use that section as the groundwork for somewhat extended remarks on what is, after all, another subject entirely. Hon. members recognize the hon. member's interest in the subject which he is attempting to discuss___

Mr. Howe (Port Arthur):

Financial interest.

Defence Production Act

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

-but I am sure he will also realize that at this time we are discussing the principle of Bill No. 256, and that he must confine himself rather particularly to that principle.

Mr. Fleming:

Mr. Speaker, I should like to say a word on the point of order that has been raised. I draw your attention, if I may, to the fact that it was not simply a matter of raising a point of order, because the Minister of Defence Production did not content himself with doing that. He used words that, in my submission, are not parliamentary. He said that the words of the hon. member for Calgary South were a slander. As I understand it, those words are unparliamentary and should be withdrawn.

I am raising those two points. I am asking that you direct the Minister of Defence Production to withdraw the unparliamentary expression he used; and second, on the point of order I submit that the remarks of the hon. member for Calgary South are completely in order because he is drawing attention to a provision in the Defence Production Act which is directly germane to this whole matter. What he is pointing out is that under that section it would be perfectly within the powers of the minister-I do not say it would be proper-to give such a guarantee. The hon. member has asked if a guarantee of a particular kind were given.

Oh, oh.

Mr. Fleming:

I am addressing Mr. Speaker, not some people who cannot keep quiet.

You cannot take it.

Mr. Fleming:

I think patience is a virtue. I am prepared to wait until this gabbling has stopped. I submit that the point of order of the Minister of Defence Production is not well taken. I think the hon. member for Calgary South is completely in order in asking the question he has put, as to whether a particular use has been made of powers which will be continued in the minister if the bill now before the house is passed-

Mr. Howe (Pori Arthur):

What about

Cleopatra?

Mr. Fleming:

-and if the powers the government seeks are made permanent.

It will be passed.

Mr. Howe (Pori Arthur):

How many times is the hon. gentleman allowed to speak?

Mr. Fleming:

Mr. Speaker, I ask that you direct this noisy minister to withdraw his unparliamentary expression.

Take it easy.

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

Order. Perhaps the hon. member for Eglinton would oblige me by speaking more directly to the point of order and less to the principle and subject matter of the bill. I have indicated that in my opinion the remarks of the hon. member for Calgary South were departing from the principle of the bill and extending to another subject entirely. Hon. members will realize that these are questions of opinion. It is sometimes extremely difficult to distinguish between a primary argument and a secondary argument, or to draw an exact line indicating when an hon. member departs from the principle of a bill and is entering upon some other subject which is not relevant.

I drew the matter to the attention of the hon. member for Calgary South, and I took it that he was in some measure concurring in my view and was continuing with his speech in another vein. With the leave of hon. members I am content to leave the matter at that and to observe what the hon. member for Calgary South does from now on.