May 5, 1955

PC

Robert Perron

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Perron:

Not now. I am coming to my conclusion and I have only a few more words to say. You may do so when I am finished.

In my opinion, the only way to act in the matter was to make an inquiry, as was done, and besides to ask the lumber companies to increase the prices paid to farmers, prices which are ridiculously low when compared with the price of paper and those companies' financial statements. There is nothing we can do now but wait for the result of that investigation, which will be properly carried out, I am sure.

Before resuming my seat, I beg the government to do everything in its power to tackle the agricultural problem prevailing throughout the country, thereby solving the economic problem of all Canadians.

Topic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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LIB

Bona Arsenault

Liberal

Mr. Arsenault:

Can the hon. member

tell me whether it is the duty of the Quebec provincial government to do something for people who sell and produce pulpwood? Second, why did the government of the province of Quebec deem it advisable to set a

3504 HOUSE OF

The Budget-Mr. Perron maximum price for newsprint in the province? Third, why did the present premier of Quebec, the Hon. Mr. Duplessis, consider, twenty years ago, on May 12, 1935, that it was the duty of the Taschereau government to set the prices that should be paid farmers and settlers for their pulpwood?

Topic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink
PC

Robert Perron

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Perron:

As for the first question, Mr. Speaker, I don't think that the hon. member for Bonaventure is able to prove that the government of the province of Quebec has ever fixed the price for newsprint. I don't think he is able to produce an order in council fixing the price for pulp or newsprint in the province of Quebec.

I know that some years ago the premier of the province of Quebec asked the newsprint companies for a special rate on sales to newspapers in the province of Quebec, as he had also for the price of pulpwood. If I remember well, recently, at a convention held in the winter, the premier of the province of Quebec asked pulpwood companies to increase their price on wood bought from farmers and settlers.

I don't want to add to the discussion, but I feel that the hon. member was mistaken when he suggested that the government of Quebec was going to fix a floor price on pulpwood. That would be incompatible with free trade and the economic system under which we live.

As for the second question, I did not understand it very well. I do not remember what the premier of Quebec said in 1935. If the hon. member had a text, I might perhaps answer him. Now, under the circumstances, I must say, in the words of Lafontaine: "I was not born yet".

Topic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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LIB

Bona Arsenault

Liberal

Mr. Arsenault:

So you admit that the provincial government cannot do anything for the farmers or settlers?

Topic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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PC

Robert Perron

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Perron:

I did not catch that.

Topic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink
LIB

Bona Arsenault

Liberal

Mr. Arsenault:

You are saying that the provincial government will not do anything by way of increasing the price of pulpwood for either the farmers or the settlers.

Topic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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?

An hon. Member:

He did not say that.

Topic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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PC

Robert Perron

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Perron:

I admit that the provincial government can recommend to the pulpwood companies to pay higher prices, but there is the free interplay of competition to be considered, when it comes to buying or selling pulpwood. The federal government has made

inquiries as to whether the corporations had set up a combine to prevent competition, which could result in the increase of pulpwood prices in the province of Quebec. This is precisely what is being investigated. I also believe this to be the only legal and constitutional means provided by our economic system.

Topic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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LIB

Bona Arsenault

Liberal

Mr. Arsenault:

Does the hon. member not know that in Ontario pulpwood producers have been protected by law since 1937?

(Text):

Topic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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CCF

George Hugh Castleden

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. G. H. Castleden (Yorkion):

Mr. Speaker, apparently topics for the budget debate are not exhausted. It is my intention this evening to talk about the weather and perhaps to be a bit unusual by suggesting it is possible that, in this case, we may be able to do something about it. Available meteorological records indicate that over the past three years there have been some of the most astounding and unusual storms, tornadoes, floods and droughts in the history of the world. Lack of reliable information on the effect which thermonuclear explosions may have on the weather, aside from their effect on human beings, raises doubts and fears in the minds of people everywhere. People everywhere are asking for the facts, and I submit they are not getting them.

This week the Canadian prairies were visited with the worst storm on record. Reports of that storm tell of a cloud of dust four miles thick blowing into the province of Saskatchewan and meeting there a snow and rainstorm from the north with the result that the worst flood conditions in the history of that province were produced. Reports tell us that it actually rained mud there for a matter of over half an hour and that there then followed a torrent of rain which left a large portion of the province under water. The immediate losses of millions of dollars in damage to roads, bridges, communications, power lines, and individual personal losses of people in livestock, buildings and other property, are only the immediate losses. The effects on the already rain-soaked soil of that province, which depends to a large extent upon its agricultural production, are predicted by many as putting an end to any possibility of a normal crop for 1955.

I hope that the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner), who is in his seat, I notice, is taking steps to see that under P.F.R.A. drainage crews will be working on those projects

where provincial surveys have already been made in order to help clear up the drainage situation. It should be remembered by all that the present catastrophe comes after three years of increasingly abnormal moisture conditions in that province which culminated last year in a flood and rust damage that wiped out 70 per cent of the farmers' net income.

As to the effects of nuclear explosions, it is quite natural that scientists should disagree. When man is experimenting with the unknown secrets of nature in today's scientific world, it is natural that some scientists will disagree with others as to the effects. They are going to continue to disagree until full research has been made. Our protest is that the research job is not being done. Therefore, great damage is being done to public morale and to the confidence of the people everywhere. The world needs the facts regarding the possible dangerous effects of radiation not only upon human beings but also upon weather conditions.

Professor Frederick Soddy, who is a British Nobel prize winner, is recently reported in the press as saying that he strongly denounces those scientists in the world who are saying there is no possible connection between unusual weather conditions and nuclear explosions. He is supported in this statement by another Nobel prize winner, the French physicist Charles N. Martin, who claims that among the dangers of thermonuclear explosions is the danger of not only deleterious but also permanent effects upon our climate. These men are supported by no less a leading scientist than the late Dr. Albert Einstein himself.

Surely, with the existence of the possibility of such dangers to the people of the world, an immediate independent investigation should be made by the most reliable scientific experts available. Important support for this idea of an investigation and the urgency of research was given at a conference in New York city just last month. The federation of American scientists met in New York and not only requested immediate establishment of a commission to make the investigation under the auspices of the United Nations, but they strongly urged that large scale atomic tests be discontinued until the investigation was made.

Surely, under those circumstances, Canada should move through representatives in the United Nations Organization to establish such an investigation at once. It is my belief we are about three years late now. We in this C.C.F. group demand this of the government, that until such an investigation under a competent independent scientific commission is 50433-222

The Budget-Mr. Castleden made, H-bomb tests be stopped. We believe that such a request should be made to the United States government itself and to the U.S.S.R. through the United Nations Organization. It is important to the world.

People everywhere are always apprehensive of the unknown. Our urgent request is to ascertain the facts so far as humanly possible so that people will know the truth, and through that truth they can free themselves from their apprehensions, and act in the best interests of all.

I maintain that to permit ignorance to continue with a lack of proper investigation is criminal, is wasteful and is wrong. May I suggest to this government that if the facts later come out that nuclear tests do affect the climate and that the beliefs held by some of these scientists are correct, yet the government has done nothing about starting an investigation, then the people of Canada will rise in righteous indignation. They will be justified in doing so. If this government supports the move for the best possible scientific information by an independent commission under the United Nations, then the government will have done its duty. I maintain that that is the very minimum of its responsibility. The people of Canada demand the truth. The people of Canada are entitled to all possible information.

Topic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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LIB

Irvin William Studer

Liberal

Mr. Irvin Sluder (Swift Currenl-Maple Creek):

While I was home during the Easter recess, Mr. Speaker, my constituents were kind enough to suggest to me that I should make a few remarks in this budget debate. I have recently come from the west. It was my privilege and pleasure, I can assure you, to ride on that crack new Canadian train of which every Canadian will be proud. It is a cracker-jack train. The first opportunity you have to ride on the new Canadian Pacific train, "The Canadian", or the Canadian National's new train, "The Super Continental", I am sure you will be well rewarded, happy and proud of this new service.

My constituency of Swift Current-Maple Creek is so large that it takes even this crack train about three and a half hours of constant running to cross it. The time passes quickly with music and all the facilities on that type of train, so that one does not find the hours too long. The surprising thing to me is that for the past 50 years the employees of the railways have had the same kind of accommodation that is now available on the new train. The brakemen riding the freight trains of this country have had vista domes on the cabooses for the last 50 years, and it took that long to make them available to the passengers on these trains. However, it

The Budget-Mr. Studer takes time to bring benefits to mankind, and I think all of us can forecast still greater improvement in Canadian train service in the future. We will have the best, if we have not already the best, train service in the world.

I think the Canadian National should be congratulated upon its window display in the Sparks street office. Since it is the jubilee year in Saskatchewan, there are scenes showing the various areas of Saskatchewan and Alberta. In yesterday's Journal, I believe, there was an item stating that only 25 per cent of the Canadian people leave their home province. Well, that is not good enough. If we in Canada wish to have any comprehension or understanding of what the rest of Canada is like, I think it is high time some method was provided so that we could have a closer association between eastern and western Canada, a much closer association than we have had in the past. I do not know of anything that will bind a country and a people more closely together than association, and through that association the understanding of the different people in different parts of Canada. The sooner that can be augmented, the better for all of us.

Canada is a vast country, almost several countries. The people of this country need this association more than the people of any other country of which I know. Let us this year, in this jubilee year of 1955, accept the invitation of Saskatchewan and Alberta to visit those great provinces, both of which have been associated with the Dominion of Canada since 1905. My province has created as much, if not more wealth, irrespective of whether it be mineral or other wealth, over that period of 50 years through the production of foodstuffs for mankind than any other province in the dominion. It is well worth seeing. While you are there, one particular place to visit, of course, over and above every other place, is that superior constituency of Swift Current-Maple Creek.

There are reasons for that. Every year they have one of the greatest celebrations in Saskatchewan, and it will be particularly good this year. It is the largest rodeo east of Calgary. They will give you three days of celebration, centring on July 1, that you will never forget as long as you live. Not only will you be in a position to enjoy yourself and see what has happened in Saskatchewan, particularly in the southwestern part of Saskatchewan where much of the dominion government's money has been spent-much of it has been spent for rehabilitation purposes since the thirties-but you will see that part of the country in the southwest that

was believed to be in a hopeless situation during the drought and despair of the thirties.

As I mentioned before, no other area has recovered as southwestern Saskatchewan has. And we want to show the people of Canada where their money has gone and what it has done so they will know, as a result of that, and from that experience, that the same remedies can be applied anywhere, should similar conditions exist at any time in the future.

Now, that area is suffering some reverses today, because we know that in some areas of Saskatchewan there is too much moisture. But seldom has that situation existed in southwest Saskatchewan. Indeed, we are not even interested down there in Selkirk rust-resistant wheat, because we are always placed in a position-at least we think we are-that the only time we get a crop in southwest Saskatchewan is when the rest of the country is all rusted out. And when the rest of the country is not rusted out and has only sufficient rain to obtain a crop, then we have a crop failure in southwest Saskatchewan. Because for years we have been deficient in moisture.

Everyone will sympathize with the people and the farmers in Saskatchewan who have suffered heavy losses. But certainly there is nothing to despair of, because Saskatchewan can recover as no other province can. Its people have had to be experienced in knowing how to recover.

I noticed in yesterday's issue of the Regina Leader-Post that the province is ready to lend its assistance, and I am sure the dominion government will never be outdone. It never has been outdone by any organization or any government in providing assistance for all the people of Canada in every possible way, when need has arisen. And I am sure the dominion government will do so again-in fact, it has already offered- and will give service when it is needed in Saskatchewan.

Then, in addition to what you will see in Swift Current-Maple Creek, we have also some points of historical interest there. We had the north west mounted police at Fort Walsh in the Cypress hills in 1883. If it had not been for the mounted police, history would have been different in Saskatchewan, because after Custer's massacre in Montana on the Great Bend, 5,000 of the Sioux Indians moved north into Canada; and a handful of north west mounted police, honoured today as they were then, kept that band of Indians under control.

Swift Current was the stopping point of the troop movement west during the Riel rebellion, and the trail used was Battleford trail, during that war.

Then, we have other historical sites in that area, but it would take too long to describe them. You will have to come out there and see it for yourselves. We are having an old timers' reunion, where all of those who have been in that country for 65 years will be having a celebration, such as has never been seen in any other part of Canada during that period of time.

It is the greatest country in the west. And we have something more than that. We have beards out there in southwest Saskatchewan. Yes, we have beards. The he-men in Swift Current and in Maple Creek have beards such as you have never seen since the days of the apostles. We are known as the original bearded city of Swift Current, and the practice originated a number of years ago.

And there was a purpose in growing beards, because beards are important in that country. In fact, beards have been important since the creation of man. The downfall of man began when he became smooth-shaven. If you will read your history, particularly your biblical history, you will find one thing, dating back to the time of Samson, who, when his hair was shorn, lost his strength and was captured by his enemies, and was destroyed.

I think we should be on our guard, as we are in Swift Current-Maple Creek, in regard to what is going to happen to mankind if we continue as we have been doing in the past. Because as man became clean-shaven, and as he lost his luxurious beard, he lost his virility and masculinity, and man began to decline. And then it was the woman's influence began to rise. And if this situation continues we are going to be dominated by women.

Why, we see the day coming right here in the House of Commons; there are four of them here already. We will be exactly like some of the aboriginal tribes, where the men are cast aside-well, no, they are not cast aside; they have to do the work. Can you imagine anything worse than that? And the day is coming when we will be treated just the same as the male bees in a beehive-we will be worthless.

So, Mr. Speaker, I suggest that it is not only a local problem-this problem of beards

but that it is a world problem. And, you know, if you go through history you will find that all the conquering tribes were bearded. And what I am worried about is the number of people in Russia who are growing beards. I suggest we should give this serious consideration. But the men of Swift Current and Maple Creek have found the answer because they have placed man back in his proper position. For whoever heard of a woman with her lovely complexion, when she 50433-222J

The Budget-Mr. Studer snuggles up and gets the feeling of those bushy whiskers-why, they become absolutely helpless. Because they are in the hands of man, from that time on, and they will never have anything further to do with the Schick-shaver, or a slick-shaver, man.

The only reason I, representing Swift Current-Maple Creek, have not grown a beard is that I am just too busy being a member of parliament to always have to carry a stick around to keep the women away. So, on July 1, on to Swift Current-Maple Creek in Saskatchewan. Every member in the House of Commons is invited, and people from the rest of Canada; and you will come back from there feeling that the trip was justified. You are invited to come out to that country, where men are men and women are women-and if there is any difference, thank the Lord for it.

While I am speaking on the subject of western Canada I would like to say this, that each one of us who believes in modern progress has appreciated the advent of television in our midst. I understand it is the purpose of television that it shall be a boon to mankind in any particular area of the country, and that those who are deprived of the benefits of this service will not be in a position to maintain the high standard of education and the full enjoyment of culture and religion experienced by the other areas in the country having it.

Swift Current-Maple Creek will be deficient in the matter of television service. I understand that the higher the television tower is, the farther the telecast beams are transmitted. In any case, we have the highest altitude of any area in Saskatchewan. I believe it is between 3,000 and 4,000 feet. And by putting a thousand-foot television tower in our area we could beam telecasts all over the province of Saskatchewan.

I think the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation would do well to put a station there, and if they did we could service all the people in the province. While that has not happened yet, there is still time to have that service in that area of the country. I think we should adopt the principle whereby, when any member of parliament can show that a television station can give television service to cover a hundred thousand people, the C.B.C. and the government should give serious consideration to giving service to that number of people. We can do that in Swift Current-Maple Creek even though that country is sparsely settled because we have sufficient height of land and the beam will cover the whole constituency which is 300 miles from one corner to the other. It will service half the constituency

The Budget-Mr. Studer of Kindersley, half the constituency of Rose-town-Biggar and will even extend into Montana and over into Alberta.

The only thing that has retarded us so far, the only reason why we may not be completely up to date is that we have not had the advantages of this service. Our people should have the educational facilities provided by television which are given to other people in Canada. We should have the cultural and religious benefits which only television can give. We should have the knowledge that can be transmitted through television in regard to agricultural production. We have a great number of organizations like the 4-H clubs and we have the second largest experimental station in Canada. Any investment made to provide television in southwest Saskatchewan will be more than repaid in the benefits granted to the people, and the investment itself will be repaid.

Coming back from Saskatchewan we were in contact with many farmers in our constituency. We have heard during this debate of the needs of the farmers and again a very poor picture has been painted by some hon. members of the House of Commons regarding the situation in Saskatchewan. Whatever the situation may have been it certainly has been aggravated by the weather conditions of the past week. If that catastrophe had not transpired the situation as I found it in Saskatchewan would not have been as serious as it has been described here in the House of Commons.

I do not believe that the government of Saskatchewan believed some of the speeches socialist-delivered in the House of Commons regarding the situation in Saskatchewan. If the government in the province did believe it and if that situation actually existed they should have done something about it rather than just wait for the dominion government to carry the burden. Of course if some members of parliament can convince the dominion government to carry a burden that it should not properly carry then they have an ability over and above the ordinary.

To my mind every provincial government in the country should carry its share. The provinces are in a unique position to be able to at least set an example. They may not have the facilities or the money to the degree that the dominion government has, but they could go a little way and set an example. I have not seen evidence of the least effort being made in Saskatchewan to make any move whatsoever to correct the condition which it has been claimed by socialist members in this house exists in Saskatchewan.

What the farmers need in Saskatchewan is the final payment on wheat, and more than

that they need facilities to sell their wheat. The sale of their wheat will be of more value to them than the final payment. Those are two great needs. If there is a third one, most certainly it is good weather. If those needs can be satisfied I am satisfied the people of Saskatchewan will again put in their crops and unless weather conditions are completely abnormal they will deliver the same production as they formerly have.

I do not think we should overlook some of the difficulties which have been encountered in regard to the movement of grain. Some people in the west feel that it has not moved fast enough; they feel that the government or the wheat board has left undone something in regard to the movement of grain. What has actually transpired? There was the dockers' strike last fall in Great Britain which handicapped the movement of grain for almost two months. I do not know of anything that our government could have done about that because it was a foreign affair. Before that we had the grain handlers' strike on the west coast and lately the grain handlers' strike at the head of the lakes.

Nevertheless, in spite of all these difficulties, some advance has been made and, as has been stated by the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Howe), it is believed that most of the wheat in western Canada will be moved before the next crop year. Of course there is criticism and agitation in western Canada by political parties, and perhaps that is the way it should be. Do you know what I heard in Swift Current-Maple Creek? Our socialist friends were going around the country saying that the grain handlers' strike at the head of the lakes had been instituted by the Minister of Trade and Commerce. They were saying that the minister had made a statement during the winter that he was going to move this grain during the coming summer, and as he had failed to move the grain he had instituted that strike.

I do not know how many people in western Canada believed that, but there is one thing I think they know and that is that at no time when there was a strike, no matter how seriously it affected the farmers, did the socialist party lift a finger to stop it. We all have responsibilities. I did not expect the leader of the socialists when he was over in Britain to interfere with the dockers' strike there or try to settle it, but if he had the interests of the western farmers at heart perhaps he could have made some suggestions without making himself obnoxious. Perhaps the government of Saskatchewan could have put forth a little effort in connection with grain

handlers' strikes wherever they happened especially as they affected the farmers.

Do not forget the time when we had a railroad strike in 1950 which paralysed industry in Canada. The socialists did not do anything about that. A special session of parliament was called in an endeavour to correct that situation and a solution was presented but every socialist in this house with the exception of one voted against the settlement of that strike. We are still suffering from that strike because you cannot make up lost movement of grain and you cannot regain markets that have been lost because of grain stoppages.

What do the socialists think of strikes? Are they in favour of them? Everyone has the right to strike, as we all know. No one would want to take that away. But I would say that the socialists actually favour strikes except when they have one of their own. They had a transportation strike in Regina in 1953, but that was a horse of another colour. What did the socialists do about that? They had advertisements in all the papers of Saskatchewan, and I quote the Leader-Post of July 6, 1953, which is a capitalist paper, do not forget, which said that the men should not strike because they were making more money than anyone else and that the cost of living had come down during the last eighteen months.

At the same time they were complaining about that and using it to their advantage in Saskatchewan. It all depends where the shoe pinches. If we are going to work together in the settlement of the nation's difficulties, then I think we should be able to honestly expect some assistance from all governments in Canada including a socialist government.

When there is a strike the socialists are hesitant to say anything. They are ready to talk about anything if they think they can get more prestige, but they are certainly silent on the occasions of strikes. Some of their leaders in Saskatchewan remind me of a little puppy, and in saying this I do not want to get into any dog controversy such as they had during the last election in the United States. A puppy is a harmless little creature, always lovable. When you take out a puppy and he knows where he is going he trots along in front with his tail up in the air full of life. But when he does not know where he is going he hangs behind with his tail between his legs and does nothing but whimper. That is about as close a comparison as I can make of what I have observed about the socialists. There has been great competition in connection with the selling of grain, as everyone knows. This government, through

5, 1955 3509

The Budget-Mr. Studer its Prime Minister, through its Minister of Trade and Commerce and through other members of the government, has left nothing undone to try to acquire markets and stimulate the movement of that grain. Has anyone else made any suggestions that would make it possible to sell Canadian grain? The only solution offered by the socialists, as far as I can see, is that we give it away. I do not know to whom we are going to give it. I do not know what government wants it. I do not know of any government that has made an appeal for it. In the meantime there is only one way in which the farmer can obtain the reward for his labours, and that is to sell it. The government has left nothing undone to make that possible.

I do not think that any socialist or any other member of the opposition has contributed anything to promote the sales. I would say they have retarded them in most of the speeches, the canned speeches that have been delivered in the House of Commons by the socialists from Saskatchewan. Not one jot or tittle have they contributed by any one of their speeches to the movement of one bushel of grain. I think they can do better than that. I would say that, if farming and agriculture is in such a condition in Saskatchewan as has been described by the socialists, then I wonder why they are not selling their land-no, not selling it, giving it away, because they are at least supposed to share part of that with someone else. Why are they acquiring more property? Why are the socialists in Saskatchewan acquiring more land if agriculture is on its way out? From the socialist speeches I have heard it is useless for me to go back and seed my land or raise chicks. We had 500 chicks and we had more trouble in caring for them than with some of the babies owing to the very cold weather that occurred. It is useless my raising livestock if agriculture has gone entirely to pieces.

I think we should have more encouraging words for the farmers of this country. I think the farmers have more faith in our country than other people and than other parties give them credit for. I think that, if we get a good crop again, the government will help them get it marketed. I think we can look forward to another good crop year and the prospect of selling the grain to the best advantage through our wheat board, operated under the government as well as or better than through any other system or through any other government that I know of.

With regard to our present budget, I think everybody in Canada is congratulating the Minister of Finance on this new budget. Some

The Budget-Mr. Studer hon. members tell us that this budget is a bad budget. They tell us it is handicapping farmers and that no one receives any benefit from it; that the government perhaps made a move in the right direction but should have gone much further. The government could not remove any more duties on farm implements, because they have all long ago been lifted. You may go into Montana and buy any piece of machinery-and the hon. member for Assiniboia (Mr. Argue) may buy any piece of machinery-and bring it back across the line, without duty, and purchase any repairs that you wish. I am glad that the government listened to our appeal last year, when we suggested that they take the duty off truck tires and every other commodity the farmers need. They reduced the taxes on automobiles; and everybody admits that the farmers need automobiles.

I suggest that the federal government has set a wonderful example in this budget to all the provinces of Canada; and if they followed suit we would have a much better economy. What is stopping the Saskatchewan socialist government from taking that $100 off an ordinary car, which is the tax they have to pay there. The federal government reduced the tax; certainly that province could follow suit. They are not in favour of taxes. What is stopping them from taking off the 3 per cent tax on farm fuels that the farmers have to use? What is stopping them from taking off the 3 per cent tax on building materials, to stimulate building activity? What is stopping them from making some kind of contribution which some members in the House of Commons say that the federal government should be making?

If this budget is bad, I hope we have a lot more just as bad in the future. I hope we continue to have tax reduction budgets. I hope we continue to have incentive budgets, so that the people of this country can invest their money and know that it will not be all taxed out of their hands. If the people of this country would invest their money in new enterprises, it would provide jobs in the country. In Saskatchewan they tried to do it through the state, and what happened? They have no qualms about it. Out there, if the government factory does not pay dividends-they are against profits, but if it does not pay a profit-out it goes, and the labouring people with it. Sometimes they take up the slack in regard to those they have discharged from employment by putting them into the government. They have that method of absorbing them into the government of Saskatchewan or having them unemployed or placing them in the position where they have no alternative but to join the

army. The hon. member for Regina City (Mr. Ellis) said that the Liberals were suggesting that that was the Liberal cure for unemployment, to have unemployed men join the army. If that were so, why have we not our quota filled in the army, the navy and the air force; which we have not up to date? That is not the Liberal solution to unemployment, but it is the socialist solution to unemployment, and we have no intention of stealing any socialist platform in regard to that method of settlement of the unemployment problem. So I would say that they are not worried in Saskatchewan over the depression. They have had the highest budget expenditure of any time in their history. So, if they would follow suit with the Dominion of Canada and reduce the taxes, certainly all the people of Canada could have the advantage of it.

I have been asked on several occasions by the labouring people in Swift Current-Maple Creek to make a speech on labour. I would very much like to do that because there is sympathy with both the farmers and labour. Everyone wants labour to prosper, and everyone wants the farmers to prosper. I think that labour has some very good representatives here in the House of Commons. They have certainly accomplished their aim in forwarding the objectives of labour. But I am not one who thinks that labour can make agriculture prosperous but I do think that agriculture can make labour prosper. I concentrate on what I think is a fine endeavour to augment, stimulate and advance production to the position where everyone in Canada can enjoy the benefit of it. Agriculture is fundamental and responsible for the welfare of labour. Never have I seen prosperity throughout the land when agriculture was not productive, when it was not in prosperity. Strange to say, farmers often are not in that position; farmers have the ability, capacity and productiveness to make everyone else prosperous except themselves. That seems to be one of the difficulties in connection with agriculture. I am sure the rest of the people of Canada will wish to see that the equilibrium is maintained in regard to farmers and other wage earners or other productivity in the Dominion of Canada.

So we have a budget that reduces the taxes, a budget that is an incentive to employment. We have a budget that leaves something for the little fellow. You cannot add nothing to nothing. You cannot take away nothing from nothing. Some of our critics say that we should have enlarged the exemptions. However, we have now the largest exemptions of any country that I know of. In Canada a single man has a $1,000 exemption, and a married man $2,000. In the

United Kingdom, even under a Labour government, the exemption was $385 for a single man and $660 for a married man. In the U.S.A. the exemption is $600 for a single man and $1,200 for a married man. In Australia the exemption is $224 for a single man, and $448 for a married man. In New Zealand the exemption is $1,013 for a single man, and $1,350 for a married man. Comparing that with Canadian exemptions, we are far above all other countries on an equivalent basis in regard to the exemptions that are allowed. So the little man cannot be entirely exempted from paying taxes-at least he is not in Saskatchewan. I do not know of one single person, no matter how poor, who does not pay equal taxation with the rich in Saskatchewan. I see no exemptions there whatsoever. There are many more exemptions under our dominion government's policy than under any other government that I know of in this country. You cannot, as the socialists say, bring the rich down to the level of the poor. And then no one is in a position to pay taxes. We need to bring the poor up to the rich. That is our objective. We shall never be satisfied until we attain it. Then everybody can pay taxes. Then there will not be any necessity for exemptions that we are talking about today.

A royal commission was advocated in the budget. I think that was one of the most important things that was incorporated in the budget of this year. That is an indication of Canada's thinking with regard to the future: determine our economic responsibility and our economic possibilities for the future. While they are considering those economic possibilities, I think there is a wonderful opportunity for this royal commission to determine the earning power of the different groups, occupations and industries throughout the Dominion of Canada. When we can determine the income and the purchasing power of those different occupations, whatever they may be, across Canada, we shall then be in a position in which we can balance that economy as between one industry and another.

That procedure will eliminate the constant controversy in the different groups and occupations in Canada as to who is having the best standard of living, who is taking more than his share, and the constant agitation with regard to the farming population, and their contention that they are taking what is left and are not receiving their share of the national wealth. The sooner we accomplish that end and get on that basis, I think the sooner we shall be in a position where there will be a more satisfactory economic condition prevailing throughout the Dominion of Canada.

The Budget-Mr. Studer

We have had considerable advice from the opposition groups in connection with what the government should or should not have done. But that advice cannot explain away the fact that this is a good budget. Any budget that reduces taxes is a good budget. As I mentioned before, I think we should continue to have that type of budget so that over a period of years we shall be in a position where more and more benefits will accrue to the people. I have heard no alternative that was of any consequence to what has been done. I have heard no alternative whatsoever except, incidentally-and this is by way of correction-what in some people's opinion should be instituted, but nothing that is permanent or that possibly could be adopted. I have heard nothing that the socialists might advocate that would be of any value, nothing that would indicate that they practise out in Saskatchewan what they preach here in the House of Commons. I have heard nothing from the Social Crediters who seem to be feeling more or less happy these days with regard to what their prospects may be in connection with future government here in Canada, the financial ability of the people and of the services that they may be in a position to offer to the people of Canada.

But before you can offer any social service to the people of Canada, there is one thing that you must do about it. You must vote for it. No one can obtain a social service in this country unless through this parliament we vote for that social service. If we vote against the social service, certainly none will be applicable. I think the Social Credit party is active throughout the whole country in connection with advocating family allowances, leaving people with the impression that Social Credit was possibly the originator of these family allowances and, as they were possibly the originators, they should be entrusted with the responsibility of increasing them. I have been told that even on the telephone poles throughout the province of Quebec there are posters suggesting that the people contact their member to have the family allowance increased or perhaps have the family allowance doubled. But as I mentioned before, you cannot have a social service unless you vote for it. You cannot claim to have had a part in the social service unless you can claim to have voted for it.

On looking at the history of family allowances, I notice that in 1944 it was incorporated in the speech from the throne through this Liberal government. Various subamendments were offered and then the final vote came to accept this speech from the throne

3512 HOUSE OF

The Budget-Mr. Studer which had the family allowance incorporated in it. In that speech from the throne were included these words:

The family and the home are the foundation of national life. To aid in ensuring a minimum of well-being to the children of the nation and to help gain for them a closer approach to equality of opportunity in the battle of life, you will be asked to approve a measure making provision for family allowances.

The vote on the motion for an address in reply was taken on February 10, 1944, and was as follows: Yeas, 146, composed of reactionary Liberals and reactionary Conservatives; and nays, 21, representing the progressive vote for humanity at large by the opposition members of the splinter groups.

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Sub-subtopic:   ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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SC

Charles Edward Johnston

Social Credit

Mr. Johnston (Bow River):

I rise on a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

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LIB

Irvin William Studer

Liberal

Mr. Studer:

They voted against the motion for an address in reply to the speech from the throne, in which family allowances were incorporated.

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LIB

Louis-René Beaudoin (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Speaker:

Order. I understand that the hon. member for Bow River is rising on a point of order.

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SC

Charles Edward Johnston

Social Credit

Mr. Johnston (Bow River):

Yes, Mr. Speaker. I want the hon. member to indicate to this house whether or not, as he has inferred, the Social Credit party voted against that amendment for family allowances. I had occasion today to look up the record because I suspected that this speech was going to be made. However, I did not know by whom or when. Otherwise I would have had the Hansard here. I am saying to the hon- member who has the floor now that he is absolutely wrong- In that debate, Mr. Speaker-

Topic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
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?

Some hon. Members:

Order.

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LIB

Louis-René Beaudoin (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Speaker:

At this moment the hon. member is going beyond raising a point of order. He is arguing that what the hon. member has just said is not correct. Having asked the hon. member to say whether the party to which the hon. member belongs had voted for or against the amendment in question, he should not go beyond that but should wait for the reply of the hon. member who has the floor.

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Mr. Johnsfon@Bow River

I shall be pleased to do that, Mr. Speaker.

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?

Some hon. Members:

Ten o'clock.

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Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
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LIB

Irvin William Studer

Liberal

Mr. Siuder:

Page 364 of Hansard of 1944, on the main motion-

Topic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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May 5, 1955