June 26, 1954

CCF

Herbert Wilfred Herridge

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Herridge:

That is what I hope.

Topic:   DEPARTMENT OF CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION
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LIB

Walter Edward Harris (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration; Leader of the Government in the House of Commons; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Mr. Harris:

I have always taken the view -and I think it has been true of most hon. members-that service in the German army by a German national should not be held against him. That is his duty in time of war.

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PC

Edmund Davie Fulton

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

Does the minister apply that principle to the SS, the elite guard?

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LIB

Walter Edward Harris (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration; Leader of the Government in the House of Commons; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Mr. Harris:

I shall come to that matter. I have taken the view that under those circumstances we may very well receive people who, with their military training and perhaps with a training of mind that we do not approve, might carry forward in peacetime certain undesirable characteristics; but that if the peacetime record of the person is good or, shall I say, not bad, the fact that he was in the German army should not be held against him.

The hon. member for Kamloops has asked me a direct question with respect to the SS troops. We have repeatedly had reports of former SS troopers being in Canada. Like some of these other stories that have been mentioned this afternoon, they crop up from time to time. There may be some people here who belonged to the SS. I do not know. We have never consciously admitted them. Yet I recognize the fact that you can deceive one of our immigration officers. You can deceive the screening group. You can deceive everybody and can get into Canada.

I want to make this one exception to what I have said. I think there is no reason why I should not make this clear. At one period in the war nationals of countries that were occupied by Germany were conscripted into the army and put into the SS divisions. I could give the reasons for that. It was that the German general staff did not want them in the German formations; at least that appears to have been the case. So when we obtain an application here from a close relative for the bringing forward of a relative who had served in these groups, we look at the record to find whether, in fact, he may have been a Roumanian or a Pole or from some of these other occupied countries, whether he was a volunteer or a conscript, the circumstances of his service and his whole personal record. But those cases are quite few in number. The general practice is that

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration anybody who has served in the SS troops is not welcome to this country.

I think the hon. member for St. Paul's made one general reference to some of our difficulties. I appreciated the friendly manner in which he acknowledged there were certain difficulties. I do not think the department overlooks the humanitarian aspect at all, but we are bound to refuse even close relative requests under the circumstances I have just mentioned. We do refuse such requests. It would therefore be easy to point to cases where very close relatives could not understand why they could not bring forward the one that they wanted to bring forward. At the same time we find it impossible to grant their requests.

The hon. member for Oxford referred to an incident in western Ontario last fall. He need not be surprised that I am aware of it. I read the newspapers just as he does and, I say with great respect, perhaps go a little further and have the department investigate the circumstances. I do not mean to cast any reflection on my hon. friend by what I have just said. It did happen that at one period there were a number of German and other farm workers who left their employment. This took place over a short time. The number was not large; I do not think it exceeded twenty. Coincidentally the story about the black car arose. I apologize for saying that there was no black car. What I meant was there was no black car of this nature.

One of these men was upset by his relatives who had happened to settle in Quebec and the following day he left. The impression got about that in the motorcar was a person who was going about soliciting people to leave their employment. We followed up the story and found in almost every case that those who had left were working, some in the brickyard at Cooksville and others in the city of Toronto. There was no recruiting for industries in the province of Quebec that we could find.

I only mention that to suggest that we do try to follow up these things in every way we can in order that these persons shall carry out the obligations they have undertaken. I think I have covered all the particular cases that have been raised.

The hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar asked me to table a return showing Indian children attending non-Indian schools, and I should like to have permission to do that.

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LIB

William Alfred Robinson (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

The Chairman:

Has the minister leave?

Topic:   DEPARTMENT OF CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION
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?

Some hon. Members:

Agreed.

6828 HOUSE OF COMMONS

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration Mr. Harris: The table is as follows:

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INDIAN CHILDREN ATTENDING


- I ii hi rv v VI VII VIII IX X XI 2 2 Nova Scotia 13 10 4 2 5 5 7 5 7 8 9New Brunswick 12 2 3 4 1 4 2 9 23 10 9Quebec 33 31 17 17 21 16 18 21 30 9 12Ontario 63 38 33 40 39 34 31 27 146 72 4969 36 42 26 11 10 5 1 1 3Saskatchewan 59 23 29 20 16 6 4 3 13 9 7Alberta 26 14 19 24 14 14 14 13 22 23 10British Columbia 208 167 179 177 136 132 135 96 141 61 3913 1 6 3 1 8 7 9 3 5 5 1 1 3 Outside Canada 2 3 3 4 3 2 4 4 3 3 Totals 506 332 344 320 251 229 221 178 389 201 138Indian Schools 8,443 4,542 4,021 3,336 2,711 2,122 1,447 908 371 151 82Grand Totals 8,949 4,874 4,365 3,656 2,962 2,351 1,668 1,086 760 352 220 Item agreed to.


LIB

William Alfred Robinson (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

The Chairman:

I understand that items 56 and 57 are carried but that the hon. member for Kamloops wanted to ask a question on item 57.

Topic:   INDIAN CHILDREN ATTENDING
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PC

Edmund Davie Fulton

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

No, item 58.

58. Citizenship branch, $697,031.

Topic:   INDIAN CHILDREN ATTENDING
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PC

Edmund Davie Fulton

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

There is one thing here which disturbs me a little. It has to do with the total amount asked for. If the minister will look at the details on page 130 he will understand the nature of my question. The details show that in the last fiscal year there was asked for in the estimates an amount of $615,464. A little further down the details show that the total actually spent in that fiscal year was $505,464, or exactly $110,000 less than was estimated. Yet this year the department is asking for $697,031, or $82,000 more than was estimated last year and $192,000 more than was spent last year. I am puzzled and concerned to know the reason why, although they spent last year less than they asked for, they are asking this year for more than they asked for last year, and $192,000 more than they actually spent.

Topic:   INDIAN CHILDREN ATTENDING
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LIB

Walter Edward Harris (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration; Leader of the Government in the House of Commons; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Mr. Harris:

The figure my hon. friend uses is an estimated figure which is made up in November before these estimates are submitted to treasury board, and that is why we feel that a certain margin is required here. It is one of those estimates that does vary a bit and I think he will find, if I may say so, that the Department of Citizenship

[The Chairman.]

and Immigration keeps its estimates down pretty close and has the reputation of being one of the three or four departments that have reduced their estimates on occasions.

Topic:   INDIAN CHILDREN ATTENDING
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PC

Edmund Davie Fulton

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

I think I must give the minister credit for that. I believe there are two or three items here where less is being asked for than was sought last year, but this seems to me to be a particularly outstanding case where your estimate was $110,000 more than you spent last year and yet you are asking for $82,000 more than you estimated last year. If the minister could tell us what was actually- spent last year and that the estimate of expenditures given in the details was considerably less than was actually spent then I could understand that the estimate might be larger this year. But I emphasize again that on the basis of what was actually spent up to December 31, plus what you estimated you would spend for the balance of the fiscal year, it is indicated that you would spend $505,000 during the year which is $110,000 less than you originally submitted in your estimates. Yet you are asking for $190,000 more than that.

Topic:   INDIAN CHILDREN ATTENDING
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LIB

Walter Edward Harris (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration; Leader of the Government in the House of Commons; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Mr. Harris:

My hon. friend must remember that in the estimates for this fiscal year we are obliged to raise the pay of every one represented in the details because of the general increase last fall. In addition we have the normal increases in salaries because of the seniority attained.

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration

Topic:   INDIAN CHILDREN ATTENDING
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PROVINCIAL AND PRIVATE SCHOOLS


UNIVERSITY Law Medi- cal Normal school Nurse training Nurse aide Com- mercial Trades Blind, Deaf, Dumb rehabili- tation auxiliary TotalXII XIII 1st yr. 2nd yr. 3rd yr. 4th yr. 1 1 62 3 2 824 4 1 1 892 4 1 1 3 15 19 15 28521 6 1 1 2 12 1 9 5 37 6671 3 5 2 3 2181 2 2 2 1963 1 3 3 5 3 21115 2 1 2 2 2 11 5 15 1,526241 433 34 48 8 3 8 1 1 9 28 6 47 38 75 3,381 40 28,174 88 8 3 8 1 1 9 28 6 47 38 75 31,555


PC

James MacKerras Macdonnell

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Macdonnell:

There is one item I should like to raise in that connection. I notice that you are up $50,000 on language texts for citizenship classes.

Topic:   PROVINCIAL AND PRIVATE SCHOOLS
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LIB

Walter Edward Harris (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration; Leader of the Government in the House of Commons; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Mr. Harris:

Has my hon. friend any objection to that or is he helping me out?

Topic:   PROVINCIAL AND PRIVATE SCHOOLS
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PC

James MacKerras Macdonnell

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Macdonnell:

I am not quite sure. I just want to know more about it. It seems a rather steep rise. Are there so many more

classes requiring language texts that it is 50 per cent greater?

Topic:   PROVINCIAL AND PRIVATE SCHOOLS
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LIB

Walter Edward Harris (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration; Leader of the Government in the House of Commons; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Mr. Harris:

I could give a list of the books that are being published this year under this particular item. There are 16 of them, and they total $140,430. If my hon. friend wants to have them put on the record, I will do so.

Topic:   PROVINCIAL AND PRIVATE SCHOOLS
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June 26, 1954