June 16, 1954

LIB

Walter Edward Harris (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration; Leader of the Government in the House of Commons; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Mr. Harris:

Mr. Chairman, I wonder

whether I might appeal to the good sense of the hon. member for Kamloops, who has just called it ten o'clock, and suggest, without stressing the point, that on another occasion we did go to some trouble to arrange the business of the house to meet his convenience and ask him if he would not consent to go on at this time and finish these particular estimates.

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PC

Edmund Davie Fulton

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

I think we carried item 730 on a previous occasion. I was not objecting to carrying items 728, 729 and 730.

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LIB

John Whitney Pickersgill (Secretary of State of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. Pickersgill:

The hon. member is perfectly correct. Item 730 was taken on another day to meet the convenience of certain hon. members. I wonder whether the committee would agree to go on for a little while with the archives and the other small items I have.

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PC
LIB

Edward Turney Applewhaite (Deputy Chair of Committees of the Whole)

Liberal

The Deputy Chairman:

Public archives and national library, resolution 350, to be found on page 50.

Public archives-

350. General administration and technical services, $297,020.

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CCF

Herbert Wilfred Herridge

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Herridge:

I want to say a few words on this item because I am very interested in the work done by those connected with the public archives and the national library. First of all may I say that I think the majority of members appreciate the valuable and excellent work being done by our dominion archivist and his staff. I am interested in history myself and on a good number of occasions they have rendered me very quick and courteous service in looking up matters that were of particular interest to me or some of my constituents. I think the dominion archivist and his staff are doing excellent work in collecting and preserving the records of this country. That is a very much more important matter than many Canadians realize at this time, although I am pleased to note that more and more people are recognizing the good work being done by our public archivist. They are doing that

6112 HOUSE OF

Supply-Secretary of State work with the co-operation of quite a number of local organizations, historical societies and individuals throughout the country who spend a great deal of time gathering material and facts concerning local history and preserving them to that extent.

Earlier this evening one hon. member spoke about a system of awards. May I say that I support a system of awards as outlined which would recognize outstanding service in this country by outstanding Canadians and ordinary people. In this connection I suggest that there are many people in this country-you find them in the little communities all over Canada; you find them in various communities in British Columbia, they are relatively few in number-who have worked for years and taken the trouble to collect local historical documents, keep records of organizations and things of that sort; relics that are of increasing value as the years go by. Many of them are making contributions to local historical societies and also making their contributions to provincial and dominion archives. I believe there should be some appropriate system by which recognition is given to the willing and co-operative service rendered by these individuals.

I would ask the Secretary of State to consider whether it would not be possible for either the historical sites and monuments board or some other recognized authority to devise some system of certificates that could be awarded to people who had made outstanding contributions to preserving history, even in the local or community field. I think official recognition would be a good connecting link between the individuals who do this kind of work throughout the years, and the more or less official bodies, the historical societies and our provincial and national archives.

I have just another word or two to say, Mr. Chairman. From time to time we hear in this house criticism of the expenditure of public funds for archives, for libraries, for paintings, for the development of music, of art, and culture in other directions. We are not very far from the pioneer stage. Some of our more practical people, sometimes people who are more or less over-infected with bourgeois opinions, resent expenditure of public moneys on these things. We in this group take the opposite view. We believe that a vote for expenditures on these things is a vote for progress and the development of our civilization.

In that connection I just want to mention something I noticed in a recent issue of the New York Times. It is dated May 16, and is an article dealing with the amount of

money being spent by the government of Turkey on music and activities of that sort. I wish to quote a few figures which I feel should shame Canadians who are opposed to the expenditure of money on such things as archives, national libraries, books, music and so on. I quote:

Turkey has had a state opera since 1949 and its government has appropriated $3,300,000 for the building of a new opera house in Istanbul. Besides this the government gives $750,000 a year to the state theatre and opera in Ankara; $350,000 a year to the Turkish philharmonic, and about $150,000 a year to the Turkish national conservatory where the 300 students, besides getting free tuition, are also provided with board, lodging and clothing.

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PC
CCF

Herbert Wilfred Herridge

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Herridge:

I do not like the hon. member for Kamloops to say ten o'clock. As one of my colleagues said quietly, some contributions made to the debate this evening would cause one who gives any thought to the question to come to the conclusion that Mr. Cecil Rhodes failed somewhat in his attempt to civilize the colonials by granting scholarships. Now, Mr. Chairman, that comment is intended to be in good humour and spirit.

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CCF

Herbert Wilfred Herridge

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Herridge:

I suggest that if this government were to perhaps spend a similar amount on the things that I have mentioned there would be a strong protest from some people. However, I think we can learn a lesson from the amount of money spent by the government of Turkey upon such things as music, libraries, museums and activities of that sort. I am very pleased to see the increased amount that is in the estimates, and I trust that next year there will be a further increase. I notice there is an increase this year of $14,816 for the archives, which is little enough for the very important work to be done by our dominion archivist and his staff.

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PC

James MacKerras Macdonnell

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Macdonnell:

As one who benefited

from the generosity of the late Cecil John Rhodes, I rise with some hesitation after what has been said by the previous speaker. I understand we have agreed to discuss this item and I want to say a word about it. We spend a good many billion dollars for a certain type of protection against danger which confronts us, but it remained for a distinguished soldier to remind us this week that in the last analysis the final protection is not going to be tanks and guns, it is going to be the things for which libraries stand. Therefore, I believe it is well we should pause at this moment and not cry ten

o'clock when people are talking about libraries. I should like to endorse what has been said.

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PC

Edmund Davie Fulton

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

Since there seems to have been some reference to the cry of "ten o'clock" I make no apology whatever for the fact that I have suggested, when my hon. friend was discussing what was spent in Turkey for matters of public archives, and so on, that it was not germane to the discussion of the estimates of the Secretary of State. If I am uncultured and uncouth, if I have not benefited-

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LIB
PC

Edmund Davie Fulton

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

-by the education to which I was exposed overseas, I do ask my hon. friend not to lay the blame on Cecil John Rhodes, but to lay the blame right here.

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PC

James MacKerras Macdonnell

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Macdonnell:

I did not hear my friend say ten o'clock.

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Item agreed to. National library- 351. General administration, $102,998.


CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles:

Can the Secretary of State say a word as to what is the status of the national library? I realize that when we talk about the national library we are talking about two things; one, the institution, the collection of books and so on, and the other the building. Perhaps it is the latter that I had in mind in my question. What is the status of that aspect of the matter?

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LIB

John Whitney Pickersgill (Secretary of State of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. Pickersgill:

Of course the hon. member, who is an expert on the rules, realizes he is out of order. The question should have been asked of the Minister of Public Works. However, I shall do my best to reply. Plans are being prepared for a building, and a site has been chosen on which one of the oldest, if not the oldest, of the temporary wartime buildings is now situated. It is hoped that it can be torn down by the time plans are complete, and we can proceed just as expeditiously as, in the circumstances, would be possible with this project which the government has no desire to delay.

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CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles:

What is that site?

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LIB

John Whitney Pickersgill (Secretary of State of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. Pickersgill:

It is the No. 1 temporary building.

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June 16, 1954