March 16, 1954

CCF

Alexander Malcolm Nicholson

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. A. M. Nicholson (Mackenzie):

Mr. Speaker, I do not plan to spend any time trying to justify a member speaking in support of this motion. Having heard from representatives of a number of urban ridings, I feel that I should be permitted to make some comments without any hon. member suggesting that we cut off the discussion at this time.

Hon. members in all sections of the house have expressed their appreciation of this legislation, and I want to endorse the opinion which has been expressed that the position of ex-service personnel should have continued consideration. Many of the men who joined the services in the period 1939 to 1945 had the misfortune to go through school when there were not as many advantages as there are now. Many of those boys had a pretty rough time during the thirties, and I think they should be able to take advantage of the facilities which have been provided during the past ten or twelve years if they so desire.

Reference has been made to training for the purpose of rehabilitating disabled persons and fitting them for gainful employment. I suppose it may be argued that it is the responsibility of the municipality or the province to provide employment for the disabled, but when polio strikes the country it does not select any particular municipality or province, and victims in all parts of the country are often handicapped for life. Those of us who have enjoyed good health find it most difficult to place ourselves in the position of one who must spend his life in a wheel chair. I think it is quite obvious that it is in the nation's interest that those who are disabled should be given the opportunity to make a useful contribution to society. I feel that the federal government would be only fulfilling its duty in co-operating with the provinces and the municipalities with a view to establishing training projects for the purpose of rehabilitating disabled persons.

I know of one little girl who had the misfortune of being run over by a freight train on her way to school in Yorkton some years

Vocational Training Co-ordination Act ago. She lost both feet, one hand and the fingers of the other hand. Partly as a result of assistance from the Canadian National Railways she was able to complete her public and high school work and became a school teacher. She did an outstanding job in the classroom. I have often felt that having mastered her great misfortune this woman could make an outstanding contribution in helping to train disabled persons. I feel sure that with the co-operation of the minister the program for the future will be improved a good deal.

Reference has been made to training projects to increase the skill or efficiency of persons engaged in agriculture, forestry, mining, fishing, the primary industries in Canada, and in home-making. This brings me to my main reason for rising to speak. I live in a rural community near a town with a population of about 600 at the last census. Under the legislation passed in 1942 the local authorities in co-operation with the province and the federal government provided technical education. For the first time in the history of that rural community boys were permitted to work in the shops. They received expert training in woodworking and shopwork, and it has given the boys a new interest in education. This town of 600 has a school attendance of nearly 300. A dormitory has been built where some 80 boys and girls are able to live while away from home. Three buses bring students to the school every morning and take them home at night. Certainly I believe it increases the effectiveness of the nation as a whole when you have available in rural communities the kind of services I have been describing, and which exist at Sturgis where I live. I am sure if more rural communities could have the assistance of the local, provincial and federal authorities in participating in projects of this kind there would be a much keener interest in providing greater security for all our people.

I am not overlooking the reference to home-making. In this connection it may be argued that the task of providing girls with training in home-making should be left to mothers, but each year in our school we have an achievement day when the teachers demonstrate what has been accomplished in the school, and when the young lads demonstrate the type of work they have been doing. The girls taking home economics show what can be produced in the kitchen and in the dressmaking shops, and rather than resent the fact that training is given in homemaking the parents appreciate that in the middle of this century our young people in

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Vocational Training Co-ordination Act rural communities are given access to facilities which have been taken for granted for so many years in the large cities.

Representing a rural community as I do I am very glad that this legislation was passed in 1942, and that the minister is piloting this bill through the house so that we may have a continuation and extension of this outstanding work.

Mr. J. W. Nose worthy (York South): Mr. Speaker, I have examined this bill and certainly I cannot see anything in it to which one could take objection. Indeed there are quite a number of features which are quite commendable. I am certain the minister and his department are to be commended on the insertion of a provision which will provide training and rehabilitation of the disabled. That is a measure to which we have been looking forward for a long time. While on this question of the rehabilitation of the disabled I would like to suggest to the minister that some consideration be given to the older people, such as old age pensioners and those receiving old age assistance. There are thousands of older people who have many years of usefulness ahead of them and who are finding life very boring.

The administrators of the various hospitals under the Department of Veterans Affairs carry out a considerable amount of adult education among the older veterans by training in craft work and in developing hobbies. Many of them are able to eke out a little additional money through the medium of the things they make in these hospitals. I have often wondered whether through some department of the federal government, possibly in co-operation with the provinces or local authorities, some means could not be found whereby some of these older people could be induced to participate in craft work, and some provisions could also be made for the disposal of the things they might thereby produce in such a way that these old people would be able to obtain some remuneration for their work.

In this connection we must realize that within a few years probably one-third of our population will have to support the remaining two-thirds, the younger people at one end of the scale and people over 50 or 55 years of age at the other. If industry continues the present practice of letting employees out at the age of 50, 55 or even 60, we are going to have a great many people in that age group quite capable of working but without any opportunity to do so.

I believe England has tackled that problem through what is known as sheltered workshops, where older people are given an opportunity to work during hours which are suitable to them, and where they are encouraged and assisted to undertake craft work through which they produce certain articles. Under that scheme some provision is made for the sale of these articles. That is one phase of adult education to which we have given very little consideration in this country, and it is one which I believe should be given some consideration at the present time.

The hon. member for Cape Breton South brought up the question of trade schools as contrasted with our secondary vocational schools. On the basis of my own experience with vocational guidance officers and teachers I am inclined to believe that employers in this country do not favour the employment of youths who have had no training other than the training for the job. My experience has been that employers approve of youths having a fairly high academic standard. They feel that if a youth is given a fairly good academic grounding he is a much more valuable employee in a shop or a factory, and I would be loath to see our youth encouraged to specialize in any particular field at a very early age without having a good academic training.

There can be no question but that we need more trade schools for our youth. The regular secondary vocational schools do not attempt to turn out skilled mechanics. That is not their purpose. They try to give the youth a certain amount of academic training, and the fundamentals of the particular trade or trades in which he is interested. Unquestionably there is a need for what may be considered finishing trade schools where those who have received a foundation training in our secondary vocational schools, or even in our secondary academic schools, can obtain a much more specialized trade training than is available in our regular schools at the present time.

One question raised by the hon. member for Cape Breton South is certainly worthy of consideration by the committee to which this bill will be referred, and worthy of consideration by the Department of Labour. I notice that all the assistance to the provinces in connection with vocational training is offered on a 50-50 basis, and that the federal government's contribution must not exceed that made by the province. I think that time has come when we must face up to the fact that the 50-50 rule no longer meets the needs of Canada today. With the difference in wealth that exists as between provinces the time has come when we should consider

doing, in the case of these federal grants, what practically every provincial government in the country has had to do in relation to the municipalities, namely to place these grants on the basis of need. Some formula is required whereby those provinces that are in the greatest need will receive a larger share of the cost of educational activities than will the wealthier provinces.

I realize as much as anyone the difficulties that will confront any minister who puts that kind of proposition to some of the provinces of Canada. However, I think a basic fact that must be remembered is that Nova Scotia is not training young people for Nova Scotia; Nova Scotia is training young people for Canada. Today a high percentage of the youth who are trained in any one province are likely to spend the greater part of their lifetime in a province other than that in which they were born. I think we must be able to look at this question of federal grants to vocational education from the broad national point of view. We are trying to train Canadian citizens, and these grants should be administered in such a way that Canadians whether born in Prince Edward Island, Newfoundland, Nova Scotia or British Columbia will be given some reasonable equality of educational opportunity in so far as these federal grants are concerned.

That may be a step worth discussing at some federal-provincial conference. It is certainly one that we should be ready to face by this time. Every provincial government has had to face up to that problem in its relations with the municipalities. There was a time when provincial governments paid their educational grants on a per capita basis but, so far as I know, that is no longer the case in any of our provinces. Today the provincial governments try to adjust their educational grants on the basis of need. The poorer communities in the province may receive, as they do in Ontario, close to 100 per cent of their educational costs, whereas other wealthier municipalities receive as little as 30 per cent.

I think that is a question which should be faced on the federal-provincial level, and that instead of going on indefinitely apportioning all these grants on a 50-50 basis a beginning should be made in doing it in terms of Canadians as Canadians and not as citizens of any particular province.

Topic:   VOCATIONAL TRAINING CO-ORDINATION ACT AUTHORITY TO ENTER INTO AGREEMENTS WITH PROVINCES, CHANGES IN ADMINISTRATION, ETC.
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LIB

Milton Fowler Gregg (Minister of Labour)

Liberal

Mr. Gregg:

Mr. Speaker-

Topic:   VOCATIONAL TRAINING CO-ORDINATION ACT AUTHORITY TO ENTER INTO AGREEMENTS WITH PROVINCES, CHANGES IN ADMINISTRATION, ETC.
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LIB

Louis-René Beaudoin (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Speaker:

If the minister speaks now, he will close the debate.

Topic:   VOCATIONAL TRAINING CO-ORDINATION ACT AUTHORITY TO ENTER INTO AGREEMENTS WITH PROVINCES, CHANGES IN ADMINISTRATION, ETC.
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LIB

Milton Fowler Gregg (Minister of Labour)

Liberal

Hon. Milton F. Gregg (Minister of Labour):

Mr. Speaker, once again I should like to express sincere appreciation for the manner 83276-194

Vocational Training Co-ordination Act in which all members received the amendments which are incorporated in this bill. To a minister who is attempting to administer the federal end of this business I am sure it is helpful and encouraging to listen to the kind of discussion that has taken place today and that took place on March 3.

I would refer to the further remarks made today by the hon. member for Cape Breton South. He welcomed the committee. Although I think he will agree with me that in these three or four pages of the bill there is not a great deal, when he says he hopes the study will be wide open I can tell him that I also have that hope. As far as I am concerned, in referring it to the committee I will not suggest at all that in that study there be a rigid and strict adherence to the clauses of this bill.

The hon. member makes the suggestion that at least the younger people in, for example, the coal mines which are levelling off at a lower level and in the textile business, which is levelling off at a much lower level, and who are now unemployed might be trained for some other activity. I agree with that suggestion most heartily. I can tell him that in these days we in the department, in conjunction with the unemployment insurance offices, are making a study of the matter. I am getting tired of using that word "study", and I am going to use a little stronger term. We have reached the point during these past weeks of having qualified officials go to several places where these things are happening and, without making any promises, I hope that we may be able to do this in the coal industry in Nova Scotia before too many weeks elapse, in order to see how far we can go in this retraining in conjunction with the provinces.

I can assure my hon. friend that there is not much use of our doing that unless we [DOT]can go in under the banner of the provinces and have their full co-operation. As a matter of fact I expressed this thought in a broadcast which I made in my own constituency last Saturday night. I stated that I felt we should give encouragement in retraining and finding new employment opportunities for those who are out of employment and will never again be employed in the textile industry, and that we should also encourage in every way the young people who would normally go into such industries to be trained, in other activities in their own areas and in their own provinces, if possible.

The hon. member for Victoria, B.C. (Mr. Fairey) needed to make no apology whatsoever for clearing up some of the points that have been discussed. He did so very well indeed, and I thank him for it.

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Vocational Training Co-ordination Act

The hon. member for Cartier (Mr. Crestohl) spoke of the fear that vocational graduates might be checked too hard by examining boards in any given province before being permitted to practise their new skills in that province. That matter again is of course within the scope of the provinces. From observation I would say that I do not think any of them are erecting too difficult barriers. In view of the profession of my hon. friend I must admit that I do not think these examining boards are any tougher on the young bricklayers, for example, than are the provincial bar associations on the young lawyers who want to practise in those provinces.

I do not think the hon. member for Saskatoon (Mr. Knight) posed any special problem on vocational training. He gave us suggestions on the improvement of training in general and on the importance of co-operating to a greater extent with the provinces. We all know well his views on that matter. Perhaps some of us cannot express agreement to go quite as far as he suggests in the direction of entering into the educational field; nevertheless we are glad to have his views again.

The hon. member for Esquimalt-Saanich (Mr. Pearkes) brought up a point which rather suggested that I did not clarify the first part of the resolution when it was under discussion. The resolution reads in part as follows:

That it is expedient to introduce a measure to amend the Vocational Training Co-ordination Act to meet present-day requirements for defence and other purposes, including authority . . .

I would refer him to page 2623 of Hansard of March 3 where I said very modestly:

... I should like to state that I do not want for a moment to overestimate the importance of the total number of amendments that are forthcoming here.

If I may, Mr. Speaker, I should like to refer briefly to the bill for this particular purpose The act contains such expressions as "to fit persons for employment for any purpose contributing to the efficient prosecution of the war". Of course at that time the war was paramount. Perhaps the intention was that this kind of training would be aimed very directly at the war in so far as it was possible to do so. In the new act, after amendment takes place, the expression will be "to fit persons for employment for any purpose contributing to the defence of Canada whether in industry or in the armed forces".

I think I might sum it up in this way. Now that hopes are rising that we will be free from war as we knew it at that time,

we hope that instead of the pressure being to train people for the immediate and efficient prosecution of war we may under vocational training do a useful job in helping to provide a solid body of trained young men and women who will be valuable in the activities of peace as well as in war. However, there was then and there will continue to be the two categories of training the cost of which is borne 100 per cent by the federal treasury, namely the training of personnel for defence works and the training of personnel for the armed forces. But I can tell the hon. member for Esquimalt-Saanich that there is no intention of taking in people holus-bolus for such new defence training. I would hope that the training of civilians would add to the number of skilled tradesmen who would be available to the reserve forces, but no drastic new policy is contemplated here.

The hon. member for Mackenzie (Mr. Nicholson) expressed satisfaction that we are reiterating here the intention of assisting the provinces in equalizing opportunities for the young people of rural communities. That is exactly what is intended, to help the provinces on a 50-50 basis with respect to training for young people in rural areas. The hon. member for York South (Mr. Noseworthy) referred again to the rehabilitation of the disabled, and to older workers. The rehabilitation 'or even the training of older workers does not come directly within the terms of the bill, but I should like to say that we are doing a good deal not exactly in the way of vocational training but rather in the way of attempting to encourage employers to retain their older workers for a longer period if they are able to do so and the opportunity is there; and also, in spite of the fact that it may disrupt their pension plans, to accept older workers who do not have jobs and for whom jobs have to be found.

We have had some interesting experiments. I shall be glad to go into them in the standing committee or in committee of the whole if the subject is sufficiently related. We have had a very interesting experiment in the city of Toronto. I know my hon. friend will be glad to learn that recently we have had the pleasure of co-operating with the Canadian Manufacturers Association in carrying out, through their own channels, a survey of this matter, and the reports on that will be available later.

The hon. member also stated that in his opinion employers looked for academic standing and other qualities perhaps as much as for the bare skills. I think that is in line with

what was said the other night by the hon. member for Greenwood (Mr. Macdonnell). I believe there is a good deal to be said for not trying to train young people in technical skills before they gain maturity and some understanding of life and knowledge of other things, as well as the skill of the particular employment.

The hon. member for New Westminster (Mr. Hahn) referred to a committee to be set up. I think it was probably a slip of the tongue, but I should like to refer him to Votes and Proceedings, No. 25. He will see there that the standing committee on industrial relations is set up, and he will also see a list of the members. I believe the committee can be convened at any time.

Topic:   VOCATIONAL TRAINING CO-ORDINATION ACT AUTHORITY TO ENTER INTO AGREEMENTS WITH PROVINCES, CHANGES IN ADMINISTRATION, ETC.
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LIB

Daniel (Dan) McIvor

Liberal

Mr. Mclvor:

It is a good committee.

Topic:   VOCATIONAL TRAINING CO-ORDINATION ACT AUTHORITY TO ENTER INTO AGREEMENTS WITH PROVINCES, CHANGES IN ADMINISTRATION, ETC.
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LIB

Milton Fowler Gregg (Minister of Labour)

Liberal

Mr. Gregg:

It is a good committee. I am glad to say that a good deal of interest has been shown in the advisory council and the step that has been taken in increasing the membership from 16 to 20. At this time I should like to put on the record the personnel of the council as it stands at the present time. The chairman is Dr. G. Fred McNally of Edmonton. Dr. McNally is well known as chancellor of the University of Alberta. Of course he was born in New Brunswick, so that makes him all right. The members of the committee are, in alphabetical order: T. D. Anderson, general secretary of the Canadian Legion of the British Empire Service League, Ottawa, representing war veterans; L. S. Beattie, superintendent of secondary education, department of education, parliament buildings, Toronto, representing the government of Ontario; Mrs. Allan Turner Bone, president of the national council of women, Montreal, representing women; Gordon Burnett, manager of Bedard-Girard Limited, 230 Nepean street, Ottawa, representing employers; H. L. Campbell, deputy minister, department of education, Victoria, representing the province of British Columbia. He is the successor of the new member for Victoria, B.C., who occupied that post on the council before Mr. Campbell.

Then there are G. G. Cushing, general secretary-treasurer, Trades and Labour Congress of Canada, Ottawa, representing employees; Norman S. Dowd, executive secretary, Canadian Congress of Labour, representing employees; E. K. Ford, director of vocational education, department of education, Halifax, representing the province of Nova Scotia; Dr. G. A. Frecker, deputy minister, department of education, St. John's, Newfoundland, representing the province of Newfoundland; J. W. McNutt, director of 83276-194J

Fire Losses Replacement Account vocational education and regional director of vocational training, Fredericton, representing the province of New Brunswick; Gustave Poisson, deputy minister, department of youth and social welfare, Quebec city, representing the province of Quebec; T. A. Robinson, Canadian International Paper Company, Sun Life building, Montreal, representing employers; W. A. Ross, regional director, Canadian vocational training, department of education, Regina, representing the province of Saskatchewan; W. H. C. Seeley, Toronto transportation commission, 35 Yonge street, Toronto, representing the employers; Miss Yolande Valois, vice-president of the Canadian and Catholic Confederation of Labour, Sorel, representing employees and, of course, women as well; and W. Elliott Wilson, department of labour, Winnipeg, representing the province of Manitoba.

If hon. members have kept tab they will have noted that, outside of the chairman, only eight provinces out of the ten are now represented. It was our desire to have one or two other national groups represented in forming the larger council.

Topic:   VOCATIONAL TRAINING CO-ORDINATION ACT AUTHORITY TO ENTER INTO AGREEMENTS WITH PROVINCES, CHANGES IN ADMINISTRATION, ETC.
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Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to the standing committee on industrial relations.


CONSOLIDATED REVENUE FUND

ESTABLISHMENT OF ACCOUNT FOR REPLACEMENT OF GOVERNMENT PROPERTY

LIB

Milton Fowler Gregg (Minister of Labour)

Liberal

Hon. Milton F. Gregg (for the Minister of Finance) moved

that the house go into committee to consider the following resolution:

That it is expedient to introduce a measure to establish in the consolidated revenue fund an account for the replacement of government property lost, destroyed or damaged through fire and for the said purposes to authorize advances from the account, with the approval of the treasury board, up to a maximum of five million dollars.

Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Robinson (Simcoe East) in the chair.

Topic:   CONSOLIDATED REVENUE FUND
Subtopic:   ESTABLISHMENT OF ACCOUNT FOR REPLACEMENT OF GOVERNMENT PROPERTY
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PC

Howard Charles Green

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Green:

Will the parliamentary assistant give an explanation?

Topic:   CONSOLIDATED REVENUE FUND
Subtopic:   ESTABLISHMENT OF ACCOUNT FOR REPLACEMENT OF GOVERNMENT PROPERTY
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L L

William Moore Benidickson (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Finance)

Liberal Labour

Mr. W. M. Benidickson (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Finance):

Mr. Chairman, the purpose to be served by this measure can be stated very briefly. It is to ensure, when fire loss occurs and replacement or repair of property destroyed or damaged is urgently and immediately required, and there is not sufficient money available in the parliamentary vote, that authority and funds will be available, subject to the approval of treasury board, to proceed with repairs and replacements without delay.

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Fire Losses Replacement Account

Topic:   CONSOLIDATED REVENUE FUND
Subtopic:   ESTABLISHMENT OF ACCOUNT FOR REPLACEMENT OF GOVERNMENT PROPERTY
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PC

Howard Charles Green

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Green:

May I ask the parliamentary assistant how these losses have been made good in the past?

Topic:   CONSOLIDATED REVENUE FUND
Subtopic:   ESTABLISHMENT OF ACCOUNT FOR REPLACEMENT OF GOVERNMENT PROPERTY
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L L

William Moore Benidickson (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Finance)

Liberal Labour

Mr. Benidickson:

In the past they have been made good either by postponement of the replacement or by postponement of the erection of another structure that was contemplated in a parliamentary vote, or they have been provided in some cases by contingency vote of rather a slender amount, in the Department of Finance, and I think there is one additional vote. I would draw the attention of the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra to the fact that it is possible there might be a delay of some twelve months in the replacement of a building of importance, or personal property of importance, because we would have to wait for parliament to vote a replacement, although parliament had voted the original allotment for the building destroyed by fire.

Topic:   CONSOLIDATED REVENUE FUND
Subtopic:   ESTABLISHMENT OF ACCOUNT FOR REPLACEMENT OF GOVERNMENT PROPERTY
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PC

Howard Charles Green

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Green:

Will the same procedure of tenders be followed in purchasing goods with this money set aside as an insurance fund?

I presume it also covers buildings?

Topic:   CONSOLIDATED REVENUE FUND
Subtopic:   ESTABLISHMENT OF ACCOUNT FOR REPLACEMENT OF GOVERNMENT PROPERTY
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L L

William Moore Benidickson (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Finance)

Liberal Labour

Mr. Benidickson:

I think the bill will

include both movable and immovable property. The intention will be that parliament will be given an opportunity to revote the money, if it happens that it cannot be covered by one of the votes of the department in the year in which a fire loss occurs.

Topic:   CONSOLIDATED REVENUE FUND
Subtopic:   ESTABLISHMENT OF ACCOUNT FOR REPLACEMENT OF GOVERNMENT PROPERTY
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PC

Howard Charles Green

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Green:

Yes, but the parliamentary assistant has not answered part of my question. In spending this money will there be the same precautions exercised in calling for tenders, and the like, as applies in the case of the ordinary purchase at the present time; or will there be some short-cut?

Topic:   CONSOLIDATED REVENUE FUND
Subtopic:   ESTABLISHMENT OF ACCOUNT FOR REPLACEMENT OF GOVERNMENT PROPERTY
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L L

William Moore Benidickson (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Finance)

Liberal Labour

Mr. Benidickson:

I think, my hon. friend can be assured that the same precautions will prevail as have prevailed in all expenditures of the government which, as the hon. member knows, are under a very strict system.

Topic:   CONSOLIDATED REVENUE FUND
Subtopic:   ESTABLISHMENT OF ACCOUNT FOR REPLACEMENT OF GOVERNMENT PROPERTY
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CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles:

I take it from what the parliamentary assistant has said that this is not in the nature of a fire insurance fund. I see that he agrees. This is simply the provision of money for an interim period in case a fire destroys a building or some other government property. Did I understand from what the parliamentary assistant said that it is the intention to ask parliament every time to replace money spent out of this fund by a specific vote for that purpose?

Topic:   CONSOLIDATED REVENUE FUND
Subtopic:   ESTABLISHMENT OF ACCOUNT FOR REPLACEMENT OF GOVERNMENT PROPERTY
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L L

William Moore Benidickson (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Finance)

Liberal Labour

Mr. Benidickson:

I would say it would not be the intention to do that on every occasion. It may be that the matter in question could be provided for through an item parliament had already voted, in other words

a general item. But sometimes there fall short in the case of a rather extraordinary disaster. It is drawn to our attention that this might be very deleterious to the government service if it was necessary to wait for twelve months for parliamentary approval, and the contingency votes or some other allowances in the normal votes of the department did not provide an opportunity to replace the property that had been destroyed by fire.

Topic:   CONSOLIDATED REVENUE FUND
Subtopic:   ESTABLISHMENT OF ACCOUNT FOR REPLACEMENT OF GOVERNMENT PROPERTY
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March 16, 1954