May 9, 1953

PC

Ellen Louks Fairclough

Progressive Conservative

Mrs. Fairclough:

Of course I understand there is no question about the two new acts, and really that is what has given rise to much of the confusion. My question had to do with the Old Age Pensions Act and the answer had to do with the Old Age Security Act, which are two entirely different things.

The minister has said that he has not received the sanction of the provinces. I do not think that is true either of Manitoba or of Ontario from the information I have at hand. I find in the statement of March 17, 1953, that the minister did inform the Manitoba government that the federal government was not insisting on the provincial governments collecting the overpayments, nor did it advise them not to make such collections.

Topic:   IRRIGATION
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   Ex-M.P.
Permalink
LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin (Minister of National Health and Welfare)

Liberal

Mr. Martin:

My hon. friend is now discussing overpayments. She is not dealing with recovery from estates. There is a difference.

Topic:   IRRIGATION
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   Ex-M.P.
Permalink
PC

Ellen Louks Fairclough

Progressive Conservative

Mrs. Fairclough:

Yes, I realize that, and that particular point was on overpayments. But in the matter of recovery from estates, did I understand the minister to say that where a person was a pensioner under the Old Age Pensions Act and qualified under the means test provisions of that act, and received that pension, and transferred to the provisions of the Old Age Security Act, and such person subsequently died leaving an estate in excess of $2,000, no claim could be made against that estate for the portion of the pension received while he was still under the Old Age Pensions Act?

Topic:   IRRIGATION
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   Ex-M.P.
Permalink
LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin (Minister of National Health and Welfare)

Liberal

Mr. Martin:

We have no power to deal with the provinces. The provinces have their

own legislation, and administer that portion of the act. As I said when I spoke in answer to the hon. member before, we cannot interfere with them. The provinces, within their sphere, are sovereign bodies. We have no authority to tell them what they shall do. So far as we are concerned, there is no doubt about that.

Topic:   IRRIGATION
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   Ex-M.P.
Permalink
PC

Ellen Louks Fairclough

Progressive Conservative

Mrs. Fairclough:

Does the minister say he does not wish the provinces to collect from these estates under the Old Age Pensions Act?

Topic:   IRRIGATION
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   Ex-M.P.
Permalink
LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin (Minister of National Health and Welfare)

Liberal

Mr. Martin:

I have already said we wrote to all the provinces and asked them what their views were, because the hon. member will recall they were paying a portion under the Old Age Pensions Act. The benefits the old age pensioners received came not only from us but from them. The situation now is different under the Old Age Security Act. I have no authority, nor has parliament, nor has this government any authority to tell the provinces what they must do in respect of matters which are their own concern.

Topic:   IRRIGATION
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   Ex-M.P.
Permalink
PC

Ellen Louks Fairclough

Progressive Conservative

Mrs. Fairclough:

Some of them at least have said that the 25 per cent, which would be their share of any recoveries from estates, does not cover their cost of administration. There is no secret about the fact that at least some of the provinces want to have this repealed. If there are provinces which do not want it repealed, and of which the minister knows, will he say that he will take no steps because such provinces have ignored the provisions of the Old Age Pensions Act?

Topic:   IRRIGATION
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   Ex-M.P.
Permalink
LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin (Minister of National Health and Welfare)

Liberal

Mr. Martin:

We do not take steps against any province.

Topic:   IRRIGATION
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   Ex-M.P.
Permalink
LIB

Louis-René Beaudoin (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

The Chairman:

Are we not discussing a matter which was fully debated not long ago in the house?

Topic:   IRRIGATION
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   Ex-M.P.
Permalink
PC
CCF

Clarence Gillis

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Gillis:

The minister said he had written to all the provinces for their opinions in the matter. Is he in a position to put on record the answers received from them?

Topic:   IRRIGATION
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   Ex-M.P.
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?

Murdo William Martin

Mr. Marlin:

I would not want to do that without having first consulted the provinces. I did lay before the house the situation with respect to Manitoba, after I had received consent pursuant to a question by the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra.

Topic:   IRRIGATION
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   Ex-M.P.
Permalink
CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles:

Winnipeg North Centre.

Topic:   IRRIGATION
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   Ex-M.P.
Permalink
LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin (Minister of National Health and Welfare)

Liberal

Mr. Martin:

I would be prepared to do that with respect to the other provinces; but first I would have to have their consent.

Supply-Health and Welfare

Topic:   IRRIGATION
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   Ex-M.P.
Permalink
PC

Gordon Graydon

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Graydon:

I should like to be clear in my mind concerning one question connected with the matter we have been discussing. An elderly lady came to see me not long ago, stating she had been a recipient under the Old Age Pensions Act, and had been receiving the pension for four or five years before the old act was superseded by the universal Old Age Security Act. A certificate was registered against her property. Now she comes under the Old Age Security Act. This point arises: Can she sell

the property with that certificate registered against it? I called the provincial office first, and they seemed somewhat vague about the situation. Then I called the dominion office and they were just as vague. It may be that I did not speak to the right person, or to the person who knew most about it. I am not suggesting that the officials in either case were at fault, because if I did I would be unfair.

On the other hand the question arose as to whether or not this lady could sell that property, or whether the new legislation actually vacated that situation.

Topic:   IRRIGATION
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   Ex-M.P.
Permalink
?

Murdo William Martin

Mr. Marlin:

The new legislation could not touch that title at all. When my hon. friend refers to a certificate I suppose he is referring to liens?

Topic:   IRRIGATION
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   Ex-M.P.
Permalink
PC
?

Murdo William Martin

Mr. Marlin:

Liens were levied against estates in some provinces. In Ontario I think that practice was abandoned in 1952. But wherever there was a lien, that was initiated not at our instance or pursuant to our act, but pursuant to the act of the provinces. That was the case in the province in which both my hon. friend and I reside. But liens such as that were not the result of legislation passed by us, or anything we could do in connection with it.

Topic:   IRRIGATION
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   Ex-M.P.
Permalink
CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles:

Oh, yes, it was.

Topic:   IRRIGATION
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   Ex-M.P.
Permalink
PC

Gordon Graydon

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Graydon:

I think the minister is going a little far afield. I believe if the officials of the Ontario government were here they would say that the dominion has a supervising hand over all this, and makes sure that these collections are made.

Topic:   IRRIGATION
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   Ex-M.P.
Permalink

May 9, 1953