April 20, 1953

LIB

Andrew Wesley Stuart

Liberal

Mr. Stuart (Charlotte):

There are no large cargo vessels in that area. I would point out that 90 per cent of the boats that ply these waters are equipped with radiotelephones. Another great advantage in the use of this type of equipment is that anyone can operate a radiotelephone whereas it takes a trained operator to operate the telegraphic equipment. For that reason I would submit that radiotelephone equipment is necessary in the bay of Fundy area. I would think that the installation of telegraphic equipment in the boats I have mentioned would be a step

Canada Shipping Act

backward rather than a step forward. There would be much more protection afforded by the use of radiotelephones because of the greater number of boats that could pick up a message. It would take an enormous amount of the responsibility off the shoulders of thflse who operate these boats if they knew that they could get in touch with their home offices or with other boats.

I would suggest also that criticism with regard to the equipment on passenger boats is always justified. I feel that these boats should have every type of equipment necessary for their proper protection. I do not want to give the impression that I am opposed to that, because I believe it is right. As has been pointed out by hon. members who have spoken previously, there have been a number of marine disasters in this country in the last few years, which fact clearly indicates that perhaps we should be more severe in enforcing the regulations.

There is one other matter I should like to bring to the attention of the parliamentary assistant. There seems to be some misunderstanding between the customs officials in some of the ports in Saint John and Charlotte counties and the officials of the Department of Justice. When this bill was in committee I was given to understand that no effort would be made to force small cargo boats to comply with all these regulations. The particular type of boat I have in mind is one on which there would be a master or skipper or captain and an engineer. These men realize the dangers that may be encountered and they have made provision for their own safety.

Recently a boat from Grand Manan island, whose skipper I know very well, came into Saint John, but when the captain went to get his clearance papers to return to Grand Manan he was told by the customs that they were unable to give them to him until he had got in touch with the steamboat inspector. As I said before, I believe that there is a very definite place for steamboat inspection, but I cannot think of any argument in favour of enforcing steamboat inspection in connection with fishing craft and small cargo boats that do not carry passengers. I would ask the parliamentary assistant and the officials of the department to give this matter their serious thought.

I have received a number of letters and telegrams about this matter, and I sent the minister a copy of one particular letter. So far as the equipment on his boat is concerned, he had fire extinguishers, he had a dory, which is considered to be a lifeboat, and he had covers for the dory to keep out

4080 HOUSE OF

Canada Shipping Act

the winter weather. He had all the equipment that was necessary. When the inspector looked over the boat he suggested that he should have rails and wire cables tor his protection. In the particular type of work that this man carries on it would be utterly impossible to have rails on the bdtit. It would be helpful in some cases but in the sardine industry it would be impossible to have rails and guards of the type that would satisfy the steamboat inspection service.

I ask the parliamentary assistant to go into this matter very carefully because I feel it would impose a hardship upon these men, who are finding it difficult to get along at this time. If they were forced to purchase, for their own protection, expensive equipment which they feel is not necessary, I believe it would be a step in the wrong direction. I support 100 per cent any regulation to protect the travelling public, but I really believe that fishing vessels and small cargo ships should be exempt from steamboat inspection.

Topic:   CANADA SHIPPING ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENTS RESPECTING STEAM AND MOTOR ENGINEER CERTIFICATES, RADIOTELEGRAPH INSTALLATIONS, ETC.
Permalink
IND

John Lambert Gibson

Independent

Mr. Gibson:

It is a pleasure to hear a seaman like the hon. member for Charlotte get up and take part in the discussion of the bill. I am also an old-time sailor. I admire the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra greatly as a lawyer and for his common sense. I also admire the hon. member for Vancouver East, whose judgment I am sure is very good in a great many matters; but I think he went a little too far this morning when he suggested that the operators of steamboats were more concerned with the saving of dollars than the saving of lives. I am sure he meant it to be a fair comment but I think he would not care to repeat it after giving the matter due consideration. I do not think it is generally known that the whole concept of safety at sea has changed completely in the last ten years, as the hon. member for Charlotte said, with the installation of radiotelephones on hundreds and hundreds of vessels plying the waters on the Pacific coast. A new era has come into being so far as safety of life at sea is concerned.

I should like to offer to the parliamentary assistant another comment which I hope will be of value to his department. I must say that these amendments to the Canada Shipping Act were brought in with very little notice to the shipping industry on the Pacific coast. As a matter of fact there was almost a panic in the industry when those engaged in it finally learned what the contents of the bill were after it had been printed. When a bill of this kind is introduced in

the other place and is passed by the gentlemen there it carries with it a certain stamp of approval, and one naturally considers that a body of that kind would give such a bill very mature consideration. But we find that it went through the other place with a minimum of discussion and examination and then came to the House of Commons. As hon. members who were on the committee all know, very substantial changes had to be made in the bill because as first presented to us it was ridiculous so far as the west coast industry is concerned. In making these comments, I do not wish to cast any reflection on the Department of Transport, but I hope they will make the gentlemen in the other place feel that when legislation is presented to them for the first time _ they should give it very careful examination before according it their stamp of approval.

Topic:   CANADA SHIPPING ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENTS RESPECTING STEAM AND MOTOR ENGINEER CERTIFICATES, RADIOTELEGRAPH INSTALLATIONS, ETC.
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PC

Gordon Francis Higgins

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Higgins:

I want to support the hon. member for Charlotte with respect to one particular phase of the bill having to do with wireless telegraphy installations on ships operated by Canadian National Railways in the Newfoundland service. As the parliamentary assistant knows, these particular ships are left out of the descriptions in section 406 of the act. One description is ships carrying fifty or more persons and travelling more than 200 nautical miles, and the second is ships carrying 250 or more persons and going on a voyage.

Topic:   CANADA SHIPPING ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENTS RESPECTING STEAM AND MOTOR ENGINEER CERTIFICATES, RADIOTELEGRAPH INSTALLATIONS, ETC.
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L L

William Moore Benidickson (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Transport)

Liberal Labour

Mr. Benidickson:

Is not my hon. friend referring to the law prior to the proposed amendment?

Topic:   CANADA SHIPPING ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENTS RESPECTING STEAM AND MOTOR ENGINEER CERTIFICATES, RADIOTELEGRAPH INSTALLATIONS, ETC.
Permalink
PC

Gordon Francis Higgins

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Higgins:

The amendment merely extends this particular section.

Topic:   CANADA SHIPPING ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENTS RESPECTING STEAM AND MOTOR ENGINEER CERTIFICATES, RADIOTELEGRAPH INSTALLATIONS, ETC.
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L L

William Moore Benidickson (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Transport)

Liberal Labour

Mr. Benidickson:

The hon. member is referring to passenger vessels?

Topic:   CANADA SHIPPING ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENTS RESPECTING STEAM AND MOTOR ENGINEER CERTIFICATES, RADIOTELEGRAPH INSTALLATIONS, ETC.
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PC

Gordon Francis Higgins

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Higgins:

Passenger vessels. Unless

there has been a change fairly recently, the situation is that the purser on the ship operates the wireless telegraphy system. I am thinking of voyages in particular between the mainland and Newfoundland, from North Sydney to Port aux Basques. The purser on that run takes care of the passengers and he has to take care of the manifests. In doing all that work he is a very busy man, and the result is that for quite a long time he is not able to be in the wireless room while the ship is actually en route. There are two factors with respect to that situation. The purser is not only seriously overworked, but I submit there is also a danger to the ship itself and possibly a danger to other ships that may be imperilled and cannot reach this particular ship for assistance.

1 understand that there is a radar system on the ship, and although I am not certain I believe it is also operated by the purser. If he is not there to oversee the radar system, it is not of very much avail. I think that is correct but my information is not of recent date. The last time I remember discussing the matter was about a year and a half ago, and the situation then was as I have described it today. If that is the case today- and I presume it is-I suggest that there should be a separate wireless operator for the ship independent of the purser, and I am not certain that that should not apply to all Canadian National ships in the Newfoundland service. It may not be required on some voyages, but there are a number of long voyages running from St. John's to Labrador in the coastal route, and the purser is an extremely busy man at times. I submit that provision should be made to include the particular type of ships now used by Canadian National in the Newfoundland service.

Topic:   CANADA SHIPPING ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENTS RESPECTING STEAM AND MOTOR ENGINEER CERTIFICATES, RADIOTELEGRAPH INSTALLATIONS, ETC.
Permalink
CCF

Angus MacInnis

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Maclnnis:

I wish to say a word or two with respect to the remarks made by the hon. member for Comox-Alberni as I believe there was some contradiction in what he said. He said that it was a fair comment but one which I perhaps would not care to repeat. I do not see why anyone would not care to repeat a fair comment, and I think my remarks were fair comment. The fact of the matter is that the hon. member for Comox-Alberni and myself have been looking at the question from different sides. He has been looking at it from the side of the employer and I have been looking at it from the point of view of the workers. There is an easy way in which it can be proved which one of us is right. The records can be searched to find out who have been advocating safety measures and who have been opposing them. I will be quite willing to let my case rest there. With respect to the reasons for opposing safety measures, I shall leave that for the hon. member for Comox-Alberni to explain.

Topic:   CANADA SHIPPING ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENTS RESPECTING STEAM AND MOTOR ENGINEER CERTIFICATES, RADIOTELEGRAPH INSTALLATIONS, ETC.
Permalink
IND

John Lambert Gibson

Independent

Mr. Gibson:

I do not know whether the

hon. member for Vancouver East is being as fair as I thought he would be. When it comes to ships I think he will agree that it is fair comment to say that he does not know his elbow from the anchor of a ship. He has a very extensive knowledge about many things, but so far as safety of life at sea and the operation of ships are concerned he knows extremely little. He has talked about getting the comments of those who are most competent to judge this matter. If he will discuss it with his fishermen friends as I have discussed it with mine and also with

Canada Shipping Act

his sailor friends, he will find that so far as safety of life at sea is concerned the radiotelephone has made by far the greatest contribution to the welfare of those concerned and, incidentally, to their domestic happiness. I know that has only happened in the fishing industry in recent years. I might tell him that pilots going aboard ships not equipped with radiotelephones very often take a walkie-talkie telephone aboard so that they can make full use of the radar equipment on the ships. In many cases they found it much easier to get into the harbour of Vancouver if they were allowed to talk with the operator on the bridge concerning the traffic which might be coming through. So far as the member for Vancouver East is concerned, I ask him to please give me credit for perhaps not always looking at things from an economic angle. Incidentally, I do not happen to be operating any passenger ships now myself.

Topic:   CANADA SHIPPING ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENTS RESPECTING STEAM AND MOTOR ENGINEER CERTIFICATES, RADIOTELEGRAPH INSTALLATIONS, ETC.
Permalink
CCF

Angus MacInnis

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Maclnnis:

I did not take any credit from the member for Comox-Alberni. He was the one who started the discussion reflecting upon my fairness in the matter. Now, he does not like what I said. Well, he asked for it. So far as my lack of knowledge of ships is concerned, the hon. member can come to that conclusion if he likes. As I understand it, a person does not have to sail ships to know something about them, and if it comes to that I imagine my knowledge would be just as extensive as that of the member for Comox-Alberni.

In so far as the other matters he mentioned are concerned, they have nothing at all to do with what we are discussing. I am not denying that there have been some improvements. What we disagree about is, who urged those improvements; who advocated them and who opposed them?

Topic:   CANADA SHIPPING ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENTS RESPECTING STEAM AND MOTOR ENGINEER CERTIFICATES, RADIOTELEGRAPH INSTALLATIONS, ETC.
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LIB

Louis-René Beaudoin (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

The Chairman:

Could we not get into a study of the different clauses? There are several amendments.

Topic:   CANADA SHIPPING ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENTS RESPECTING STEAM AND MOTOR ENGINEER CERTIFICATES, RADIOTELEGRAPH INSTALLATIONS, ETC.
Permalink
PC

Howard Charles Green

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Green:

There is one point I should like to make. I do not think anyone is questioning the value of radiotelephone. I realize it is used very extensively on the west coast, and it will be used on passenger vessels regardless of whether or not they are required by law to use it. The point I am trying to make, and I think the member for Vancouver East is also, is that we do not want the law which requires a wireless installation and a wireless operator interfered with. We are demanding that the Department of Transport see to it that this equipment, which is designed for saving lives, should not be discarded in favour of the radiotelephone; that is as far as it goes.

Indian Act

For example, the ships of all nations come into these ports, and they have crews that do not speak English. While the radiotelephone may be of great value to those people whose business lies mainly in coastal waters, the wireless is certainly of great value in so far as the ships of other nations are concerned. We do not wish that precaution for the saving of life to be interfered with under the Canada Shipping Act. The way the bill is drawn now, I think it will not be interfered with, provided the Department of Transport does not start issuing exemptions indiscriminately.

Topic:   CANADA SHIPPING ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENTS RESPECTING STEAM AND MOTOR ENGINEER CERTIFICATES, RADIOTELEGRAPH INSTALLATIONS, ETC.
Permalink

Section agreed to. On section 2-Other passenger steamships.


L L

William Moore Benidickson (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Transport)

Liberal Labour

Mr. Benidickson:

In connection with section 2, I think I should point out that there appears to be a typographical error in Votes and Proceedings of March 31, in the report of the committee, because it says that,

Clause 2 is amended by deleting subsection (5) of subelause (1) and inserting therefor the following:

This should read subsection (3) rather than (5).

Topic:   CANADA SHIPPING ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENTS RESPECTING STEAM AND MOTOR ENGINEER CERTIFICATES, RADIOTELEGRAPH INSTALLATIONS, ETC.
Permalink

Section agreed to. Sections 3 to 12 inclusive agreed to. Title agreed to. Bill reported.


LIB

Louis-René Beaudoin (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

When shall this bill be read a third time? Shall it be read a third time now by leave?

Topic:   CANADA SHIPPING ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENTS RESPECTING STEAM AND MOTOR ENGINEER CERTIFICATES, RADIOTELEGRAPH INSTALLATIONS, ETC.
Permalink
CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles:

You do not need leave; second reading was given on a previous day.

Topic:   CANADA SHIPPING ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENTS RESPECTING STEAM AND MOTOR ENGINEER CERTIFICATES, RADIOTELEGRAPH INSTALLATIONS, ETC.
Permalink
LIB

Louis-René Beaudoin (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

Perhaps I do because of the amendments. It is understood that this bill had second reading some time ago, but because of the amendments I am not too sure that the hon. member is right when he says that I could have third reading today without having leave.

Topic:   CANADA SHIPPING ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENTS RESPECTING STEAM AND MOTOR ENGINEER CERTIFICATES, RADIOTELEGRAPH INSTALLATIONS, ETC.
Permalink
CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles:

We do not need to argue the point; we will give you leave.

Topic:   CANADA SHIPPING ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENTS RESPECTING STEAM AND MOTOR ENGINEER CERTIFICATES, RADIOTELEGRAPH INSTALLATIONS, ETC.
Permalink
?

Joseph Henry Harris

Mr. Harris (for Mr. Chevrier) moved

the third reading of the bill.

Motion agreed to and bill read the third time and passed.

Topic:   CANADA SHIPPING ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENTS RESPECTING STEAM AND MOTOR ENGINEER CERTIFICATES, RADIOTELEGRAPH INSTALLATIONS, ETC.
Permalink

April 20, 1953