November 15, 1951

CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles:

Oh, no.

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LIB

Jean-François Pouliot

Liberal

Mr. Pouliot:

Oh, he can say, "no", but it

is true and I know that I am right. Well, now-

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CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles:

What is the pay for fortyfour hours?

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LIB
CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles:

Tell me the pay for fortyfour hours.

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LIB

Jean-François Pouliot

Liberal

Mr. Pouliot:

When I was not here you said everything. I am here and I want to finish before ten o'clock. Another thing, Mr. Chairman, is that the members of the union were deceitful in sending a letter from Mr. Bryce of the treasury board, dated 1950, before the last agreement was reached, in which he said that the rates of the printing bureau were those of Ottawa. It was true at the time, but it is not true any longer because the printers who live in Ottawa and who work at the printing bureau receive ten to fifteen cents more than the other printers who live in Ottawa, and my hon. friend will not deny it.

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CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles:

I said that tonight before you came in.

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LIB

Jean-François Pouliot

Liberal

Mr. Pouliot:

It was a good thing to correct what you said the other day. Now, sir, here we are with the complete story. It is true that these gentlemen receive 2i cents less than Toronto, but they receive as much as the maximum of Montreal and they receive ten

or fifteen cents more than their neighbours who live in Ottawa who do not work at the printing bureau. Is it satisfactory or not to create an agitation about that? I hate agitations. I am for peace, order and good government.

There is something, the last point, that was not touched on, namely the labour week. I did not say a word about it, but in Toronto they work less than they work in Ottawa. They have the forty-hour week. If we compare the salary of the printers in Toronto and the salary of the printers in Ottawa- not in Ottawa alone-at the printing bureau, we find that those at the printing bureau earn more money each week than the printers of Toronto. That is something to consider. Besides that, sir-and this will be my final word-I am opposed to the forty-hour week. If we have trouble in this country it is precisely because people have become lazy and are afraid to work. Why should we have a forty-hour week? We work here like slaves, six or seven days a week from nine o'clock in the morning until ten or eleven o'clock at night every night. Should we encourage laziness throughout this country? What has happened is that people are no longer interested in their work and a good man has no ambition. If he works harder, if he does better work, he does not get any more. They are there and they try to do the least possible for the biggest possible amount of money, and I think it is wrong. That is one of the curses of the times. People should learn the story and follow the example of their forefathers, and they should remember the natural law that has been given by God to man that one's living shall be earned by the sweat of one's brow. That is a good lesson. I am not a slave driver. I want everyone to have a chance. I am for paid holidays; but when it comes to the work that has to be done during the week I consider that a forty-four hour week is not a bad thing. It is a good thing for the work that has to be done. What is the result of shorter hours at the printing bureau? It is that the printing work of the government has to be sent outside. Why? Because the hours are too short. And when we see the big stores, the big establishments, in this country from coast to coast that are employing day and night shifts why is it that the same thing is not done here and why is it that the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles), who is so well gifted, gives a hand to those who are at the heads of the unions just to create agitation and discontent? I want the men to be happy; I want them to be well paid; I want them to be proud of their work, but I

Public Printing and Stationery Act

want them to accomplish something and to realize that they will do something when they follow the voice of their conscience instead of that of the troublemakers who are very often heads of the unions.

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LIB

Alphonse Fournier (Minister of Public Works; Leader of the Government in the House of Commons; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Mr. Fournier (Hull):

We have had this resolution up -twice, and I appeal to hon. members. I aim certain that 90 per cent of the discussion during this debate has been out of order. Everybody admitted it. We did not interfere. I thought it was just one of those blasts that come up, but if nobody wants to discuss the resolution and its terms perhaps we can pass it and have the bill-

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PC
LIB

Alphonse Fournier (Minister of Public Works; Leader of the Government in the House of Commons; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Mr. Fournier (Hull):

You are not one of

them. I will have to admit that the hon. gentleman was not in on that. Everybody admitted that the discussion that took place during the last hour was out of order. When the bill comes up hon. members will know more about it than they know at the resolution stage, and I think we could have a more orderly discussion on second reading and in committee. I do not know; that is a suggestion. I do not want to blame anybody for what took place because when we let these things develop, they are very hard to stop. But perhaps this would be the right time to do so, at ten o'clock, if it did not displease the hon. member for Greenwood.

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PC

James MacKerras Macdonnell

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Macdonnell (Greenwood):

As the leader of the house knows, I am the most reasonable fellow in the world.

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LIB

Alphonse Fournier (Minister of Public Works; Leader of the Government in the House of Commons; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Mr. Fournier (Hull):

I know.

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CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles:

So are we all.

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PC

James MacKerras Macdonnell

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Macdonnell (Greenwood):

I am in

favour of getting back to the discussion of the Public Printing and Stationery Act, and I think that is a reasonable suggestion. But I do wish to point out that on October 30, when this was last discussed, the leader of the opposition, the hon. member for Kamloops, the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre and the hon. member for Peace River all said that we had not sufficient information before us upon which to go forward. It was just like a quartette.

Now, tonight I observe with interest that the Secretary of State is not even here. He does not even honour us with his presence.

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LIB

Alphonse Fournier (Minister of Public Works; Leader of the Government in the House of Commons; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Mr. Fournier (Hull):

The Acting Secretary of State is here.

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PC

James MacKerras Macdonnell

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Macdonnell (Greenwood):

Very well; then perhaps we can get some information, although it is now after ten o'clock. Now, in the face of that it would seem that it would be well for us, with this request facing us, to let it go through after the delightful discussion

we have had. I have enjoyed every minute of it. Nevertheless I think that, like the flowers that bloom in the spring, it had nothing much to do with the case.

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LIB

Alphonse Fournier (Minister of Public Works; Leader of the Government in the House of Commons; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Mr. Fournier (Hull):

May I add this word, that when the bill is in committee stage we will have the officials here, and I think at that stage all the information requested will be forthcoming. However, this is the resolution stage; and I do not know that hon. members should press now for the information.

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PC

James MacKerras Macdonnell

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Macdonnell (Greenwood):

If the minister really thinks that by having the resolution pass tonight it would expedite matters, I would have no great objection, but on the clear understanding that all this information will be given. If that is the understanding I would have no desire to be stubborn about it.

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LIB

Alphonse Fournier (Minister of Public Works; Leader of the Government in the House of Commons; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Mr. Fournier (Hull):

I will give the assurance that we will have the officials here, with all the answers; at least I hope they will know all the answers. At any rate we will have the officials here, and they will be able to answer the questions.

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November 15, 1951