February 27, 1951

LIB

Walter Edward Harris (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration)

Liberal

Mr. Harris (Grey-Bruce):

Yes, I could give all the organizations.

Topic:   INDIAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT AND CONSOLIDATION
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISIONS WITH RESPECT TO BAND FUNDS
Permalink
PC

Edmund Davie Fulton

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

I am interested mainly in

British Columbia.

Indian Act

Topic:   INDIAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT AND CONSOLIDATION
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISIONS WITH RESPECT TO BAND FUNDS
Permalink
LIB

Walter Edward Harris (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration)

Liberal

Mr. Harris (Grey-Bruce):

Dr. Kelly has

been invited from the Haida Indians; Mr. Daniel Manuel from my hon. friend's own riding has been invited to represent the interior Indians; Mr. William Scow, president of the native brotherhood has been invited, and Mr. Andrew Pauli, president of the North American brotherhood.

Topic:   INDIAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT AND CONSOLIDATION
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISIONS WITH RESPECT TO BAND FUNDS
Permalink
PC

Edmund Davie Fulton

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

May I ask the minister as to

the nature of the bill itself? In the bill, are there notes as to the changes from Bill No. 267, as well as notes of the amendments and changes from the original Indian Act? If there are not, I should like to ask the minister to give us a summary now of those changes.

Topic:   INDIAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT AND CONSOLIDATION
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISIONS WITH RESPECT TO BAND FUNDS
Permalink
LIB

Walter Edward Harris (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration)

Liberal

Mr. Harris (Grey-Bruce):

If I tried to tell my hon. friend all the changes it would take quite a long time, and then he would want to read it anyway. The bill is drafted in the same form as Bill No. 267. It refers to the changes from the existing Indian Act. It will not be difficult for my friend to follow the changes between Bill No. 267 and the present bill.

Topic:   INDIAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT AND CONSOLIDATION
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISIONS WITH RESPECT TO BAND FUNDS
Permalink
PC

Douglas Scott Harkness

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Harkness:

Will the minister indicate

what might be done concerning those two suggestions which have been put forward? Will he make any observations on them?

Topic:   INDIAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT AND CONSOLIDATION
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISIONS WITH RESPECT TO BAND FUNDS
Permalink
LIB

Walter Edward Harris (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration)

Liberal

Mr. Harris'(Grey-Bruce):

I thought I made it clear this afternoon that it was the desire of the government to obtain the opinion of those Indians after first reading of the bill for the purpose of letting the house know later what it was. I think I said we would hope to have the proper amendments as a result of this conference. Now, I hope that that might be the case. Every Indian who is coming here is a member of the public of Canada, and is represented by a member of the house. I am quite sure he would want to pay his respects to his member and to discuss with him the problems of Indian affairs, and through him perhaps make representations.

Topic:   INDIAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT AND CONSOLIDATION
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISIONS WITH RESPECT TO BAND FUNDS
Permalink
PC

Douglas Scott Harkness

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Harkness:

I am quite sure the individual members of this delegation will go around to see some members, and probably some will call on several members, but that is a different thing from having a meeting with them as a group and getting their opinion. The representatives from British Columbia might have certain opinions which might not be shared by the Indians in the maritimes. If these people come to any agreement in their talks with the government, I think it would be of great value to the members of this house to have a meeting with them and hear their opinions.

Topic:   INDIAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT AND CONSOLIDATION
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISIONS WITH RESPECT TO BAND FUNDS
Permalink
PC

Gordon Francis Higgins

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Higgins:

Is it proposed to continue

the existing arrangement with the provincial

government of Newfoundland for the care of Newfoundland Indians and Eskimos, irrespective of this act?

Topic:   INDIAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT AND CONSOLIDATION
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISIONS WITH RESPECT TO BAND FUNDS
Permalink
LIB

Walter Edward Harris (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration)

Liberal

Mr. Harris (Grey-Bruce):

It is not intended to take over the administration of Indian affairs in Newfoundland.

Topic:   INDIAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT AND CONSOLIDATION
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISIONS WITH RESPECT TO BAND FUNDS
Permalink
?

Mr. Baler@

How long will these representatives be kept here? Will it be a few days, a week or how long?

Topic:   INDIAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT AND CONSOLIDATION
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISIONS WITH RESPECT TO BAND FUNDS
Permalink
LIB

Walter Edward Harris (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration)

Liberal

Mr. Harris (Grey-Bruce):

The original

invitation expressed the hope we could complete the work in three days.

Progress reported.

At six o'clock the house took recess.

Topic:   INDIAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT AND CONSOLIDATION
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISIONS WITH RESPECT TO BAND FUNDS
Permalink

AFTER RECESS The house resumed at eight o'clock.


PRIVATE BILL

TRANS-CANADA PIPE LINES LIMITED

LIB

John Decore

Liberal

Mr. John Decore (Vegreville) moved

the second reading of Bill No. 75, to incorporate Trans-Canada Pipe Lines Limited.

Topic:   PRIVATE BILL
Subtopic:   TRANS-CANADA PIPE LINES LIMITED
Permalink
PC

Howard Charles Green

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Green:

May we have an explanation

from the sponsor?

Topic:   PRIVATE BILL
Subtopic:   TRANS-CANADA PIPE LINES LIMITED
Permalink
LIB

John Decore

Liberal

Mr. Decore:

The powers requested in the

bill, the second reading of which I am now moving, are similar to the powers granted in other bills which have been passed in this house.

Under this bill incorporation is being sought for a gas pipe line company under the Pipe Lines Act, being chapter 20 of the 1949 statutes of Canada.

The bill of course follows the usual standard form of pipe line bills under this act. The purpose of the act is as follows: In view of the tremendous developments of the gas and oil industry in Alberta, certain principles were laid down by the act under which people who were desirous of having an interprovincial or international pipe line constructed would have to come.

As hon. members well know, under the Pipe Lines Act jurisdiction rests with the board of transport commissioners, and although the passing of this bill does not in any way establish a route which this proposed pipe line will follow, as that is within the jurisdiction of the board of transport commissioners, yet I have been authorized to say that the very purpose of this proposed company is to build a gas pipe line from Alberta to Montreal, following an all-Canadian route, and paralleling the main line of the Canadian Pacific railway and of the

Canadian National railway. It will be approximately 2,200 miles long with collecting lines and lateral lines of 900 miles. In view of the type of debates we had on pipe line bills not so very long ago concerning an all-Canadian route I venture to say that some people got certain ideas and that may be the reason why this bill is before this house today.

' The communities that are to be served are as follows: in Saskatchewan, cities and towns along or within reach of the Canadian Pacific railway main line, including Swift Current, Moose Jaw and Regina; in Manitoba, cities and towns along or within reach of the Canadian Pacific railway main line, including Brandon, Souris, Portage la Prairie, Winnipeg and St. Boniface; in Ontario, towns and industries from Kenora to Sudbury, including Fort William and Port Arthur, Steep Rock iron mines and paper mills at Red Rock, Terrace, and Marathon. From Sudbury the line will go south to Toronto, with spur lines west to London, Galt and Kitchener, and on to the depleted gas and oil fields of western Ontario where gas will be pumped into underground storage in summer months. From Toronto the line will go east following the Canadian National railway lakeshore line and serving Oshawa, Kingston, Port Colborne, Brockville, Prescott and Cornwall, with a spur line up to Smiths Falls, Ottawa and Hull. In Quebec, it is proposed to serve the communities along the Canadian National railway route from Coteau Junction to greater Montreal. Ultimately it is hoped, with the increased capacity of the line, to extend it along the north shore of the St Lawrence as far as Quebec city.

There is of course another federal act which exercises control, namely, the Electricity and Fluid Exportation Act. However, it is my opinion that this act would have no application, because all consumers will be in Canada and no gas will be exported out of Canada.

The mere fact that this bill should go through does not mean that any gas will be taken out of Alberta without the consent of the provincial government. In 1948 the provincial government of Alberta passed an important act dealing with gas known as an act to provide for the preservation, conservation and effective utilization of the gas resources of Alberta. I am not going to go into the details of this act. I believe that after the bill receives second reading hon. members will have an opportunity to go into it further in the appropriate standing committee.

Alberta's stand, as hon. members are probably aware, is that no natural gas will be taken outside of that province unless the

Trans-Canada Pipe Lines requirements of Alberta have been assured first. Since I come from Alberta, may I say that in that province we are concerned with the development of the gas and oil industry in Alberta. The attitude that the provincial government takes in this matter may be stated in the recent report of the Alberta conservation board and certain recommendations which it makes. These recommendations were made only a few weeks ago. The stand of the premier of the province can be seen in the publication called "Within our Borders", dated February 15, 1951. Although this publication is not official, I think the hon. member for Lethbridge (Mr. Blackmore) will agree with me that it is almost semiofficial. This is what the premier of the province says:

The government is satisfied that the board has made a thorough and comprehensive investigation into the matter of Alberta's gas reserves and the provincial requirements and concurs in its conclusions and recommendations.

The board finds that Alberta's present established gas reserves are approximately equal to the amount of gas the board estimates is necessary to ensure that the present and future requirements of the province and accordingly recommends that these reserves should be further increased before the export of gas is approved.

The government concurs fully in the board's further conclusion that as quickly as additional reserves are established it will be in the best interests of the people of Alberta to make surplus gas available for sale outside the province in that an export market will:

(a) Encourage and speed up the development of our petroleum and natural gas reserves.

(b) Encourage and make possible greater and more rapid industrial development within Alberta.

(c) Make gas available to Alberta communities which otherwise could not be served.

Then the premier's statement goes on in this way:

It is evident that by carrying out the recommendations of the board's interim report the requirements and interests of the people of Alberta will be fully protected while at the same time we should experience an accelerated exploration and drilling program for natural gas which should result in a surplus of gas for sale outside the province.

Then the premier goes on to say that to facilitate this development the government is amending its gas exploration and leasing regulations along the lines recommended by the board to encourage the more speedy development of our vast gas resources.

In any event this shows the stand taken by Alberta. I suppose we may expect that some other groups will seek incorporation. I hope there will be more people who will do so. We in Alberta would like to find ourselves in a position where there will be competing companies endeavouring to get our surplus gas reserves.

May I point out further that the main transmission line of this proposed company, from

Trans-Canada Pipe Lines Alberta to Toronto, will be a thirty-inch pipe, and from Toronto to Montreal a twenty-four-inch pipe. It is estimated that the cost of this line will be about $250 million. The passing of the bill has important national considerations. To begin with, it is an allCanadian route and, with the total volume of gas consumed in Canada, complete control will be ensured in this country. Secondly, it will make possible the replacement of foreign coal and oil for fuel purposes, thus saving many American dollars each year. Third, it will certainly be of great benefit to Canadian industries along the route.

Since Alberta is emerging as one of the world's great storehouses of gas, which is a valuable fuel and source of quick energy, the aim of this pipe line is to make the exportable surplus of the Alberta gas available to central and eastern Canada, in accordance with the recommendations made by the Dinning commission, and of course also in accordance with the policy of the people of Alberta, to dedicate the wealth of gas in that province first to the needs of the people of the province, secondly to the needs of Canada and, thirdly, for export purposes.

Many of the facts in connection with this proposed company, which I did not mention and some of which I do not even know, could be brought out after second reading, when the bill is referred to the appropriate standing committee.

Topic:   PRIVATE BILL
Subtopic:   TRANS-CANADA PIPE LINES LIMITED
Permalink
LIB

Daniel (Dan) McIvor

Liberal

Mr. Daniel Mclvor (Fort William):

Mr. Speaker, I support the bill for some very clear reasons. In the first place it is not going through the Fraser valley, Vancouver or the United States. It is an all-Canadian route. Usually those who are putting up the money to pay for a pipe line, or for anything else, have some say in the matter. We are convinced now, by those who are putting up the money, that this will be an all-Canadian route, that it will come from Alberta, and that it will come to Fort William, the hub of Canada. Then it will proceed to Port Arthur, and from there to Montreal, Ottawa and Toronto.

I intend to make only a short speech, because we want this bill to go through in short order. It is a gas bill, but we do not want any more long speeches than are absolutely necessary. We would appreciate criticism, but we believe that this is an opportunity for Canada to have an all-Canadian route, and we will support it.

This company deserves credit. It was pointed out the other day that there was not sufficient gas to encourage these people to go ahead. Well, we see what happened. This company with its engineers went ahead and

discovered seven additional sources of gas- not just one. So there is all kinds of gas to keep this pipe line going.

There is something further involved in connection with the pipe line. It is to follow a railway line, and will not need to be buried deep in the ground. It will require to be buried only 12 or 15 inches, perhaps less, for protection from wild animals or from those people who might want to get a little gas cheaply. Frost will not disturb the gas in the line; in fact it will be an aid to it.

We had a good deal of difficulty when we failed to get the oil pipe line to the lakehead. While at that time the people who were putting up the money had a good deal of say in the matter, they did not have more say than some of the people in the House of Commons who did not know as much about it. This time we are taking no chances. We are going to do our best to have this pipe line allCanadian, and have it go through the lake-head to serve the whole nation.

Topic:   PRIVATE BILL
Subtopic:   TRANS-CANADA PIPE LINES LIMITED
Permalink
PC

Howard Charles Green

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Howard C. Green (Vancouver-Quadra):

Mr. Speaker, it is indeed a great

pleasure this evening to witness the conversion of the hon. member for Fort William (Mr. Mclvor). Just a few short months ago he was doing his best to prevent us getting a Canada-first gas pipe line through British Columbia. Now however he seems to be sold on the policy of Canada first, and I am very grateful that he has come over to our side, even at this late date. It shows that there is always hope. I would hope, too, that many of his fellow members, who saw as he did last year, will also have seen the light in the intervening months.

I thought this evening that the hon. member for Vegreville (Mr. Decore) made a very frank and full statement about the routing of the pipe line. That is the kind of information to which members of the House of Commons are entitled, in respect of all these bills seeking to incorporate pipe line companies.

In view of the fact that the pipe line is to serve Canada first, and in fact in this case it will serve Canada only, I for one am very glad to support it. I believe it would be most unfortunate if any effort were made to talk out the bill and, unless in the standing committee we find something unsatisfactory, I shall certainly support it.

Topic:   PRIVATE BILL
Subtopic:   TRANS-CANADA PIPE LINES LIMITED
Permalink

February 27, 1951