May 4, 1950

LIB

James Sinclair (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Finance)

Liberal

Mr. Sinclair:

It was not on this item. However, I might be permitted to revert to resolution 2. The hon. member for Moose Mountain asked if there was any instance where these dumping duties helped Canadian farmers.

An hon Member: Western farmers.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   CUSTOMS TARIFF
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LIB

James Sinclair (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Finance)

Liberal

Mr. Sinclair:

Yes, western farmers. This matter connected with fruits and vegetables certainly is one which concerns the western farmers whom I know in my province. At Geneva the question of the protection of a country's fruit and vegetable farming industry during periods when it is in production was thoroughly discussed. Section 14 of the present Customs Tariff is being repealed and the new section 14 is being substituted therefor.

The new section authorizes the minister of National Revenue to fix the period when imported fresh fruits and vegetables are to be subject to the specific rates of duty pro-

vided for in the various tariff items covering fresh fruits and vegetables. The minister is also authorized to do something he could not do before, namely to apply it regionally. This is important in Canada where the various crops come in at different periods of the year. During those periods which are designated in the Geneva agreement by time, the length of the period in which these extra duties can be applied, the minister can regionally or nationally, by means of this extra specific duty, protect the Canadian farmer growing these fruits and vegetables.

Up until we concluded this Geneva agreement we had an agreement with the United States which, of course, this agreement now supersedes. That agreement called for three split periods for cabbage, carrots and beets. We were asked for the split period because of the nature of our problem. First in the season is when our own hothouses are producing these fruits and vegetables for the Canadian market, during which time they have to have a measure of protection against surplus coming in from the United States. Then there is the period later in the year, when there is field production, when we have to have similar protection.

That has now been extended. We now have a split period for beans, cabbage, carrots, beets, cauliflower, celery and lettuce.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   CUSTOMS TARIFF
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CCF

Robert Ross (Roy) Knight

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knight:

Returning to the matter I mentioned a moment ago, I should like to draw the attention of the parliamentary assistant to something he said. His statement was that, so far as he was aware, no application had been made by any educational institution. I am prepared to accept his word in regard to his lack of awareness, but not as to the other matter-because an application was made.

I shall place on record, to just such an application by a professor at Dalhousie university, the reply from some assistant, apparently, of the Minister of National Revenue. This reply is dated at Ottawa, March 20, 1950, and states:

I wish to inform you that the "Revere" magnetic tape recorder, per descriptive illustration submitted, manufactured by Revere Camera Company, Chicago, Illinois, a general purpose recorder for use in the recording of sound on a magnetized tape, incorporating provision for play-back thereof, is considered to be an article of a class or kind made in Canada, and, therefore, not admissible under tariff item 696 under any circumstance, but rated for duty under tariff item 445k, at 22J per cent ad valorem, most-favoured-nation tariff, subject, in addition, to the consumption, or sales tax of 8 per cent levied on the duty-paid value . . . The above magnetic tape recorder is restricted importation under the provisions of the Emergency Exchange Conservation Act and may only be imported under permit from the emergency import control division, Department of Finance, 490 Sussex street, Ottawa.

And then Mr. Abbott wrote, in reply, I believe, to the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar on some date in 1950-1 have not the exact date:

With regard to the duties and taxes, I am informed by the Department of National Revenue that these wire and tape recorders would not be classified under tariff Item 696, which allows educational equipment to be imported into Canada duty free-

And I would ask the parliamentary assistant to listen to the reason given.

-because these machines are manufactured in Canada and are available from several sources.

The point I made, and which the parliamentary assistant has not cleared up, is that it is suggested that these machines do not come from several sources in Canada, but rather that one machine is made and sold under various names, giving colour to the suggestion that they come from various sources. I am not sure whether that is correct or not, but I presume it is the business of someone in the department to find out. I would ask for that information. If it is true then in all reason, leaving out all those wisecracks about politics, the C.C.F., and everything else, in the interests of educational organizations in this country I see no reason why that one particular item should be picked to be omitted from the list of items to be allowed in free under the heading of items used for educational purposes.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   CUSTOMS TARIFF
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SC

John Horne Blackmore

Social Credit

Mr. Blackmore:

Mr. Chairman, before we pass this item, there is one comment I should like to make. Men can keep on repeating fallacies until they begin to believe they are true. One of the fallacies constantly repeated by ministers in the House of Commons is that all payments must come from taxation.

Just to give the parliamentary assistant something to think about, may I read from the proceedings of the committee on banking and commerce in 1939, the official publication thereof. At page 54 I find this:

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   CUSTOMS TARIFF
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?

Gerald Grattan McGeer

Mr. McGeer:

That is the theory that governmental expenditure must be made through the medium of taxation.

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Subtopic:   CUSTOMS TARIFF
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?

Mr. Towers@

Governmental expenditure may be

made either through the medium of taxation or through borrowing, or through the issue of currency . . .

I hope we do not hear any more of this parrot repetition of the fallacy that everything must be paid for out of taxation.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   CUSTOMS TARIFF
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Resolution agreed to. Resolutions 4, 5 and 6 agreed to. Resolutions reported, read the second time and concurred in. Research Council Act INCOME TAX ACT


LIB

Alphonse Fournier (Minister of Public Works; Leader of the Government in the House of Commons; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Hon. Alphonse Fournier (for the Minister of Finance) moved

for leave to introduce Bill No. 177, to amend the Income Tax Act.

Motion agreed to and bill read the first

time.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   CUSTOMS TARIFF
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EXCISE TAX ACT

LIB

Alphonse Fournier (Minister of Public Works; Leader of the Government in the House of Commons; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Hon. Alphonse Fournier (for the Minister of Finance) moved

for leave to introduce Bill No. 178, to amend the Excise Tax Act.

Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   EXCISE TAX ACT
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LIB

James Sinclair (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Finance)

Liberal

Mr. Sinclair:

The bill to amend the Customs Tariff will not be received from the printer until Monday, so I am not asking for first reading tonight. The other two bills are in the hands of the printer tonight and should be available tomorrow. The minister has asked me to give his assurance that the income tax bill will be before the house for at least a week so that hon. members will have a chance to digest it thoroughly.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   EXCISE TAX ACT
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RESEARCH COUNCIL ACT

LIB

Alphonse Fournier (Minister of Public Works; Leader of the Government in the House of Commons; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Hon. Alphonse Fournier (for the Minister of Trade and Commerce) moved

that the house go into committee to consider the following resolution:

That it is expedient to introduce a measure to amend the Research Council Act to provide for the appointment of an additional vice-president of the national research council, and to bring the act into conformity with the Patent Act as to the definition of "invention."

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   RESEARCH COUNCIL ACT
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ADDITIONAL VICE-PRESIDENT DEFINITION OF "INVENTION"
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PC

Howard Charles Green

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Green:

Is the parliamentary assistant making a statement?

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   RESEARCH COUNCIL ACT
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ADDITIONAL VICE-PRESIDENT DEFINITION OF "INVENTION"
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LIB

George James McIlraith (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Trade and Commerce)

Liberal

Mr. G. J. Mcllraiih (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Trade and Commerce):

Mr. Speaker, the legislation of which this resolution forms the basis is not extensive in scope. Hon. members will recall that the Research Council Act was passed in 1924 and amended in 1946. By the 1946 amendment provision was made for the appointment of two vicepresidents, one vice-president, scientific, and one vice-president, administration. In 1947 when the operation of the atomic energy project at Chalk River was placed under the jurisdiction of the research council the man in charge of that project was given the position of vice-president, scientific.

The result is that as far as the research council itself is concerned the one position of vice-president, administration, is filled but there is no position to which a person could be appointed to have similar jurisdiction over

2190 HOUSE OF

Research Council Act

the scientific end of the operation. It is desired that there should be a vice-president having charge of the scientific work of the research council other than that of the atomic energy project, and the legislation proposes to create this additional position of vicepresident, scientific.

The second part of the resolution simply deals with the definition of the term "invention." It will be recalled that the Research Council Act was enacted in 1924, whereas our patent legislation is more recent. The definition of "invention" in the Patent Act is wider and gives more complete protection than the definition in the Research Council Act. It is proposed by this legislation to bring the two definitions into line so that the research council definition will follow that of the Patent Act.

This is particularly important when one remembers that under the legislation patents of invention by technical officials of the research council vest in the council. With the current developments in chemistry and atomic energy it is particularly important that the definition be wide enough to include compositions of matter as well as apparatus and other mechanical inventions. The present definition is somewhat weak in this respect.

There is one other slight change being made by the proposed legislation which has to do with the term "national research council." The present legislation does not provide for the use of that term although it has been in general use since 1925 when it was authorized by an order in council. It is proposed to give its use legislative authority. I do not think there is any more I can usefully say on the resolution stage.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   RESEARCH COUNCIL ACT
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ADDITIONAL VICE-PRESIDENT DEFINITION OF "INVENTION"
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PC

Howard Charles Green

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Howard C. Green (Vancouver-Quadra):

Mr. Speaker, this seems to be a reasonable proposal the government is making to the house. I suggest to the parliamentary assistant that it would be helpful if after receiving second reading the bill is referred to the special committee set up to consider the working of the national research council. During the sittings of the committee last year which dealt with the atomic energy control board we had some evidence given to us concerning the need for another vicepresident. There was some discussion which I think would be of assistance in considering this particular measure.

I suggest also that, when the house goes into committee on this present resolution, the parliamentary assistant give us further details of the functions of this new vicepresident. I take it that at the present time Dr. Norman Keys of Chalk River is the

vice-president, scientific; apparently the intention is to name him vice-president in charge of that project and to have some other scientist appointed vice-president, scientific. We ask that the parliamentary assistant clarify that situation. I hope nothing will be done to reduce the prestige of Dr. Keys. I think he has done a splendid job at Chalk River and I am sure all the members of the atomic energy committee of last year would be against any move which would injure his standing.

We would like to know also if this new vice-president is to be a member of the executive committee of the research council. There is provision now for an executive committee consisting of the president; vicepresident, administration; vice-president, scientific; and at least three other members selected by the council. I suppose the bill will provide that the new vice-president will also be a member of that executive committee.

When the Research Council Act was amended in 1946 power was given to the council to set up crown companies. They could do it in two ways: either by procuring the incorporation of a new company or by taking over the share capital of an existing company. I do not know how many companies have been taken under the wing of the research council since that particular amendment, and I ask the parliamentary assistant to give us the story about these crown companies when the resolution goes into committee.

Finally, with regard to the definition of "invention". The research council are given very wide powers with respect to inventions by scientists and others in their employ and also very wide powers to sell those inventions. The parliamentary assistant has mentioned that there is to be a definition of the word "invention" to coincide with the definition of invention in the Patent Act, but in the Research Council Act reference is also made to discoveries and to improvements in processes, apparatus, or machines, and so on. It seems to me to cover more ground than would be covered by the one word "invention". When the house gets into committee I hope the parliamentary assistant will explain whether or not the definition of "invention" will do away with the word "discoveries" and the other words contained in the present Research Council Act.

Subject to receiving an explanation along the lines I have suggested when we are in committee of the whole house, the official opposition have no objection to this particular measure. I emphasize once more the desirability of having the bill, after it receives

second reading, referred to the special committee set up to consider the work of the research council.

Motion agreed to and the house went into *committee, Mr. Beaudoin in the chair.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   RESEARCH COUNCIL ACT
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ADDITIONAL VICE-PRESIDENT DEFINITION OF "INVENTION"
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LIB

George James McIlraith (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Trade and Commerce)

Liberal

Mr. Mcllrailh:

Mr. Chairman, dealing with the points raised by the hon. member I think I ought to say at the outset that, on the question of referring the bill to the committee now examining the operations of the national research council, I see no objection at all to that procedure if it appears to meet with the wishes of hon. members of the house. As to his remarks about the head of the atomic energy project at Chalk River, I think the hon. member can feel perfectly secure in the knowledge that nothing is being done that will in any way detract from the position held by that gentleman. I think we all rather share in common a high opinion of him and of the work he is doing there. The situation is simply that so far as the research council is concerned, exclusive of the atomic energy project, there has been no vice-president in charge of scientific matters. That was what was contemplated in the 1946 legislation, and by reason of the necessity of using that position for the man in charge of the atomic energy project there has been no position to which a man could be appointed.

One result is that a great deal of the time of the president of the council is taken up with general scientific meetings, and there is not sufficient time for him to give the close attention that is required to the supervising of certain of the scientific projects and the correlating of one scientific project to another. Therefore I think it becomes apparent that the position is necessary.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   RESEARCH COUNCIL ACT
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ADDITIONAL VICE-PRESIDENT DEFINITION OF "INVENTION"
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PC

Howard Charles Green

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Green:

Who is to be the vice-president?

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   RESEARCH COUNCIL ACT
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ADDITIONAL VICE-PRESIDENT DEFINITION OF "INVENTION"
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LIB

George James McIlraith (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Trade and Commerce)

Liberal

Mr. Mcllrailh:

As a matter of fact I do not know, but I do not think I would be in a position to say so even if I did know. I do not think we can discuss the matter of personnel at this point in the legislation. I think hon. members will agree that is most improper.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   RESEARCH COUNCIL ACT
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ADDITIONAL VICE-PRESIDENT DEFINITION OF "INVENTION"
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PC

Howard Charles Green

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Green:

I only asked because in the organization chart in the report of the national research council for the year 1948-49 there appear three vice-presidents, a vice-president, administration, a vice-president, scientific, and a vice-president and project manager. That is for the period expiring over a year ago.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   RESEARCH COUNCIL ACT
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ADDITIONAL VICE-PRESIDENT DEFINITION OF "INVENTION"
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May 4, 1950