Mr. Knowles:

My hon. friends are saying oh, oh, but they know that to be the fact.

Mr. Irvine:

Ask me.

Mr. Knowles:

The member for Cariboo (Mr. Irvine) says to ask him about it. He was here. Everybody knows what happened back in 1926.

Mr. Smith (Calgary West):

Have you that famous letter? We have not heard it read as yet.

Mr. Knowles:

I have read it in this house myself. It is now framed and hangs on the

Old Age Pensions Act

wall at Woodsworth house down at 301 Metcalfe street, and we would be very glad if you would come down and read it.

The point I am making is that all of us who are interested in this question of old age pensions, and students of sociology who have followed this thing, agree that the responsibility for these pensions should be a federal responsibility. To the extent that the Minister of National Health and Welfare (Mr. Martin) brings in these partial increases and then tosses the ball to the provinces, putting the political squeeze play on them to add to the amount, we keep it a dominion-provincial matter. We also retain the difference in the amount in the various provinces and the old age pensioners are the victims of that game of political football.

I agree that we do not want to delay this matter. I was delighted with the gentlemanly spirit in which the Prime Minister agreed to change the order of business in order to give this matter priority over the budget and a certain amount of priority over other matters. But I do feel that the Minister of National Health and Welfare should go a few steps further and pay some attention to the points I have raised this afternoon.

Mr. Mclvor:

Mr. Chairman, I am as interested in our aged people receiving a full pension as anyone in this house or outside of it because I know conditions. This measure does not give everything I asked for, but it does give something. Last year I stood up in this house and commended the premier of the province of Ontario for increasing the pension by ten dollars per month. I thought that was good politics, though some people thought it was smart politics. I say, if it is smart politics, let us have more of it and let us have it more speedily.

The Minister of National Health and Welfare now comes along and proves my statement that it is a wise thing to do. This measure grants ten dollars per month extra to everyone and means that our aged people and our blind people will receive $40 per month. When the province puts in its share of the extra amount I expect that in many of our provinces old age pensioners will receive $50 a month. I commend you, Mr. Minister, for your common sense in seeing the needs of the people. I hope that next year when you return we will get the other two things for which we have asked.

Mr. Shaw:

It seems rather unfortunate that when a matter such as this comes before the house, especially in the prevailing circumstances there should be an indication of juggling for credit such an attitude indicates further fighting for election advantages. I

Old Age Pensions Act

had hoped that this matter would be passed by the house without discussion. It is true that it comes before us after much probing, years of prying and pressing, but nevertheless it comes before us offering something to the pioneer citizens of this nation. This "something" takes the form of ten dollars additional in the basic pension.

It seems rather unfair, if I may put it that way, that what the provinces might be doing should be brought in at this particular time. Such action savours strongly of political jockeying. In dealing with the provinces, I believe I could take our own as the outstanding example in the Dominion of Canada. Our provincial government has endeavoured, in the light of all the circumstances confronting it, to offer the most generous proposal to the pioneer citizens of that area. In the province of Alberta, not only do the pensioners receive a basic pension of $30 per month, but they now receive the $10 supplementary bonus. I underline the word "receive".

Moreover, these people are granted hospitalization, medical, dental and optical services. I say that when you take the average pension payment in my province, it proves to be the highest paid in the Dominion of Canada. Adding to that the other services which are received, I believe I would be completely justified in repeating what I said before, namely, that in my province we have a shining example for the people to observe.

Mr. Gibson (Comox-Alberni):

You struck oil.

Mr. Shaw:

Mr. Chairman, it is true that we struck oil, but let us not lose sight of the fact that it is as a consequence of the sane and sound policies pursued by the government of that province that these payments have been made. Alberta is not the only province in Canada in which has been found the product known as oil or the product known as gas.

The Deputy Chairman:

Order.

Mr. Shaw:

I am sorry, Mr. Chairman, but they forced me to digress. I could take the provinces in Canada, starting with the one on our west and ending with the one on our east, but I shall not do so. I could probably expose certain conditions which it would not be pleasant for any of my hon. friends to hear. This would be particularly true when considered in the light of our own policies carried into practice in the province of Alberta.

This bill, Mr. Chairman, falls hopelessly short of what we would like. During this session and throughout past sessions of this parliament since my colleagues have occupied seats in this house, we have pressed for a lowering of the eligibility age. We have

pressed for the removal of the iniquitous and obnoxious means test. We have asked for a pension which would guarantee those pioneers of our country a decent standard. We are not forgetting for one moment that we have pressed for these things. We are still pressing for them, but on the other hand we are grateful for the little bit more that has been granted to us by this bill.

We are supporting the bill, Mr. Chairman. I should like to ask the minister, following the observation of the member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles), just how much more obnoxious this means test becomes under a practical application of the conditions in this bill? We regret very much that consideration was not given to the principle of lifting the ceiling on income which would have been a step towards the removal of the means test, but certainly it would have been a step in the right direction. I shall not occupy more time upon this occasion. We shall support this measure, but we shall be back in greater numbers than ever after the election pressing for more generous treatment for those who have played so large a part in the development of this nation.

Mr. Maclnnis:

Mr. Chairman, I am not going to detain the house for more than a moment. I believe I can say all I have to say before six o'clock. I should like to add my voice to that of the member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles) in speaking of the courteous and gentlemanly action of the Prime Minister this afternoon in allowing this matter to receive priority. While deploring the inadequacy of the amendments, I wish to thank the minister for bringing them in, and to say that I am glad we are going to get them through before parliament is dissolved. It must be a source of great pleasure to the government to know that their legislation finds so much favour with the official opposition that they want the amendments to go through without any discussion whatsoever. This is one issue at least on which the opposition is in agreement with the government, that is, that the old age pensioners are getting all that they are entitled to.

There are two or three points to which I wish to refer. Perhaps I should deal first with the one raised by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre, that it is to be regretted that the minister did not see fit to raise the permissible income when the amount of the pension was raised. I am convinced that should have been done, even if only to the extent of the $10 raise in the pension. The minister said that 90 per cent of the old age pensioners would benefit to the full extent of this $10 increase. I doubt if the minister realized the implication of

what he said; because if 90 per cent of the old age pensioners will benefit to the full extent of the $10 increase, it merely shows the extent to which poverty is rampant among the old people of this country. When my hon. friend maintains that 90 per cent of old age pensioners will benefit to the full extent of the proposed increase, when permissible income is, single persons, only $600 a year; married couples, only $1,080 a year, nothing further need be said. In this rich country, where we boast of our increasing wealth and our increasing national income, we certainly should be ashamed of ourselves that, with that increase, the standard of living of these old people is deteriorating.

Mr. Blackmore:

Social credit will provide for them.

Mr. Maclnnis:

I wish I were as confident of that as are my friends in the Social Credit group, provided they are confident of it; but I doubt if they are, in their saner moments.

There is another point which I want to make. I urged on the Minister of National Health and Welfare in 1947 when we were dealing with amendments to the Old Age Pensions Act at that time, that provision should be made for the wife of a pensioner when she is not eligible for pension in her own right. In all other cases where the government makes provision by way of a pension or an allowance, provision is made for the wife of the beneficiary. Why should wives of old age pensioners be an exception to the rule? A married person receiving war veterans' allowance receives an additional amount because of his wife; and the same applies with respect to other pensions. I would ask the minister to give further consideration to this point. I do not know whether it is possible to amend the bill that is before us now in order to provide for the points both the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre and I have mentioned.

There are a number of other things that I was going to say, but I think I will leave it at that, except to say that I think the old age pensioners of this country should be grateful for the kind of system of government we have, under which periodically the government must appeal to the electorate for another term of office; and in appealing to the electorate it must have something to offer it. I have been interested in politics for quite a long while; and I regret to say that in Canada governments generally do not believe in social services as a matter of policy. They believe in social services as a matter of political expediency. I say that because all the improvements in our social services come just before elections. I think it would be a good idea to have elections more often.

Old Age Pensions Act The Deputy Chairman: Shall the clause carry?

Mr. Gillis:

No.

At six o'clock the committee took recess.

The Deputy Chairman:

Shall section 1 carry?

Section 1 agreed to.

On section 2-Coming into force.

Mr. Fleming:

Why does the minister propose leaving to proclamation by the governor in council the date of coming into force of this measure? 1 can understand that time may be required to negotiate agreements with the provinces, but that does not affect the date of coming into force of the act. We could still have the act coming into force immediately, and then the government negotiating agreements with the provinces. I can understand that in respect of probably most of the provinces complementary legislation may be required, but I still do not understand why this section in the bill is necessary. Would the minister explain?

Mr. Martin:

This was the recommendation of the law officers of the crown. There will be no delay, as soon as we get the necessary agreements.

Mr. Fleming:

Is it the intention that the act shall not be proclaimed and that it will not come into force until agreements have been negotiated with the provinces?