The Deputy Chairman:

The hon. member for Peel should refrain from interrupting.

Mr. Graydon:

The hon. member mentioned the member for Peel.

The Deputy Chairman:

The hon. member should not interrupt. He is out of order in discussing what happened in the legislature.

Mr. Knowles:

I do not wonder that the hon. member for Peel in this house does not like what the member for Peel in the other house did. Hon. members in this house claim they are anxious to see this measure pushed through, but in the other house to which I referred their followers voted against a similar motion. These are the people who profess that they want to do something for social security in this country. They show their concern or interest in social security when they think it is politically wise to do so, but it takes a Tory like Arthur Meighen to state the position of the Tory party. I quoted him a few days ago to show that he stated quite clearly that in his view the unfortunates of the world should be cared for by private charity, but they should not get help as a matter of right-

Mr. Graydon:

Get on with the bill.

Mr. Sinclair:

Two days ago the hon. member for Peel rose and protested bitterly against any interruptions while he was making his speech and I think in common courtesy and decency he should refrain from interrupting.

Mr. Cruickshank:

Now I have heard everything.

The Deputy Chairman:

I should like to call the attention of hon. members once more to the rule that the hon. member who has the floor should not be interrupted when he is trying to make a speech. As the hon. member for Vancouver North has said, from time to time we hear hon. members on both sides appealing to the Speaker to keep order when at another time they are the ones who do the interrupting. I appeal to all hon. members because the responsibility of maintaining the dignity and decorum of the house is as much their duty as it is that of the Chair. I appeal to hon. members to refrain from constantly interrupting.

Mr. Fleming:

On a point of order, I should think the hon. member for Vancouver North would be the last person to complain about anyone else interrupting because no one interrupts as much as he does.

Mr. Sinclair:

On the point of order-

The Deputy Chairman:

I would ask hon. members to resume their seats and allow the hon. member to continue his speech.

Mr. Sinclair:

On a question of privilege,

hon. members will recall that when the hon. member for Peel was making his protest two days ago I said that while I had interrupted I never objected to interruptions

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Old Age Pensions Act

myself. As the hon. member for Peel is the WOrst-or the best-interrupter in the house,

I think he should remain quiet when the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre is speaking.

The Depuiy Chairman: If hon. members will just keep quiet and allow the member who has the floor to make his speech we will make some progress.

Mr. Knowles:

The hon. members who are urging that we get this bill through are taking up time with all these interruptions. Perhaps I should assume some responsibility for the many interruptions that have been made because I have been panning the Tory party -and rightly so-for the stand they have taken on social security and for their attempt to make out that they are the protagonists of a larger old age pension. I am a little perplexed, Mr. Chairman, at your ruling that I cannot refer to what took place in the Ontario legislature, but I shall abide by it.

I shall not go further into the incident that took place on March 3, but I feel that you must permit me to say something about the administration of the old age pension supplement in Ontario. I am not now referring to what has happened in the legislature; I am referring to the amount of pension that the people in Ontario get.

The Deputy Chairman:

Order. I must call the hon. member's attention to the fact that we are discussing section 1 of this bill. I do not think there is anything in this section that has to do with the policy or program of Ontario or any other province.

Mr. Maclnnis:

On the point of order, it will be recalled that we allowed this bill to go into committee without a debate on second reading. When that was done I think it was fully understood that anything that we would have said on second reading could be said in committee. There are only one or two sections to this bill and I think we could make more progress if we went on in the ordinary way to deal with these matters.

Mr. Knowles:

The need for increasing the amount of the old age pension, as is provided by section 1 of the bill, is very clear. I submit that one of the evidences of the need for that increase is the situation with respect to old age pensioners in the province of Ontario. According to a report in the Toronto Star of April 2 of this year there are in that province about 80,000 old age pensioners.

Mr. Martin:

Seventy-five thousand.

Mr. Knowles:

The minister says 75,000; the difference is not great. I am quoting the Toronto Star.

That would not be very correct.

Old Age Pensions Act

Mr. Knowles:

According to the latest report, only 6,923 of that number were getting the full amount of the $10 supplement provided in that province. In addition to that number, there are 14,354 who get a portion of the $10 supplement, but only a portion; in other words, amounts ranging from $10 down to perhaps five cents. That leaves

58.723 out of 80,000 old age pensioners in Ontario-