February 16, 1949

LIB

Louis Stephen St-Laurent (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Mr. St. Laurent:

We are dealing of course with the implementing of the agreement. If the implementation of the agreement imposes any hardship on other parts of Canada it could be and should be dealt with; but I do not think it would be appropriate to deal with it now. If I understand the hon. member correctly, he says that the preferred movement resulted from the fact that it was export movement going through the port of Halifax. But my impression is, and it is confirmed by the language of section 4 of the Maritime-Freight Rates Act, that the preferred movement is both export movement and local traffic out of the area. Local traffic all rail within the maritime area is a preferred movement just as is an export movement. I do-not think it will have any other effect there-than making possibly a rate from any point in the hon. member's county to a point in St. John's, Newfoundland, an export trade. It will no longer be an export trade; but if there has to be substituted for it something that cannot be called an export trade, all the pertinent factors should be taken into account.

Topic:   STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENTS TO IMPLEMENT TERMS OF UNION OF NEWFOUNDLAND WITH CANADA
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PC

George Clyde Nowlan

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Nowlan:

It can only be a rate from Halifax itself. Then you would have to have another one from there on, whereas now you do not separate them.

Topic:   STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENTS TO IMPLEMENT TERMS OF UNION OF NEWFOUNDLAND WITH CANADA
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LIB

Louis Stephen St-Laurent (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Mr. St. Laurent:

I understand that now the rate has to be the rate which stops at the

612 HOUSE OF

Statute Law Amendment port of Halifax. If it is for goods that have a destination in Newfoundland it is an export rate to the port of Halifax.

Topic:   STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENTS TO IMPLEMENT TERMS OF UNION OF NEWFOUNDLAND WITH CANADA
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PC

George Clyde Nowlan

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Nowlan:

Will the Prime Minister look at paragraph (c) of section 4.

Topic:   STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENTS TO IMPLEMENT TERMS OF UNION OF NEWFOUNDLAND WITH CANADA
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LIB

Louis Stephen St-Laurent (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Mr. St. Laurent:

Paragraph (c) of section 4 is in the same terms as paragraph (a), local traffic all rail. Both are traffic movements to which the Maritime Freight Rates Act applies; but it may make this difference, because any trade moving from the hon. member's constituency to Halifax for St. John's, Newfoundland, will not, after union, be an export traffic. Presumably the board will have to make a rate which it will not call an export rate, but which should be the equivalent of an export rate. However, the 20 per cent that the exchequer reimburses on the rates that are set by the tariff will still apply.

Topic:   STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENTS TO IMPLEMENT TERMS OF UNION OF NEWFOUNDLAND WITH CANADA
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LIB

Gordon Benjamin Isnor

Liberal

Mr. Isnor:

If we are assured of that it will be all right.

Topic:   STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENTS TO IMPLEMENT TERMS OF UNION OF NEWFOUNDLAND WITH CANADA
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LIB

Louis Stephen St-Laurent (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Mr. St. Laurent:

The definition of the statute is that these movements, whether you call them local or export, are preferred movements to which the freight rates act applies. Therefore the only point is one which I do not think can be settled by legislation. It is the rate that the board of transport commissioners put into the tariff. We are to pay the 20 per cent whatever it is. There will be the further point of getting the board of transport commissioners to make a local rate .that will not be higher than the present export rate.

Topic:   STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENTS TO IMPLEMENT TERMS OF UNION OF NEWFOUNDLAND WITH CANADA
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LIB

Gordon Benjamin Isnor

Liberal

Mr. Isnor:

That is what we want.

Topic:   STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENTS TO IMPLEMENT TERMS OF UNION OF NEWFOUNDLAND WITH CANADA
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?

Jean-Paul Stephen St-Laurent

Mr. Si. Laurent:

That will have to be done by the board of transport commissioners.

Topic:   STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENTS TO IMPLEMENT TERMS OF UNION OF NEWFOUNDLAND WITH CANADA
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LIB

William Ross Macdonald (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

The Chairman:

Shall section 13 carry?

Topic:   STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENTS TO IMPLEMENT TERMS OF UNION OF NEWFOUNDLAND WITH CANADA
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PC

Winfield Chester Scott McLure

Progressive Conservative

Mr. McLure:

No, Mr. Chairman. I think the section should stand until we get some other information about it. It contains a great deal. I was glad to hear the Prime Minister say-and I hope the Minister of Transport took notice of it-that the board of transport commissioners had no jurisdiction over water rates. I took up this matter with the Minister of Transport several times, but he never would agree with me. I took exception to his sending the board of transport commissioners to Charlottetown to settle rates on water. However, they went down there and settled that matter although they had no jurisdiction to do so. They set water rates for us between Borden and Tormentine, over which they had no jurisdiction whatever.

I hope that the committee will permit this section to stand until we can get a few of these matters cleared up.

IMr. St. Laurent.]

Topic:   STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENTS TO IMPLEMENT TERMS OF UNION OF NEWFOUNDLAND WITH CANADA
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LIB

Louis Stephen St-Laurent (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Mr. St. Laurent:

The hon. members says that the rate from Borden to Tormentine is a water rate. That is deemed to be a rail rate, and it is part of a rail movement which is provided for by the local tariffs. What I said was that the board had no jurisdiction over water rates which are treated as such and fixed as water rates. By special disposition of parliament we have ferry services which are treated as a part of the land rail movement.

Topic:   STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENTS TO IMPLEMENT TERMS OF UNION OF NEWFOUNDLAND WITH CANADA
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PC

Winfield Chester Scott McLure

Progressive Conservative

Mr. McLure:

The act clearly specifies that the board of transport commissioners have no jurisdiction over water rates between provinces or between a province and territory of the British empire. They cannot treat one body of water between two provinces as a railway rate and another as a water rate. Authority over these things is given to the Canadian National Railways, which are subcontractors of the government for fixing a rate on water over which they have no jurisdiction.

Topic:   STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENTS TO IMPLEMENT TERMS OF UNION OF NEWFOUNDLAND WITH CANADA
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?

Some hon. Members:

Carried.

Topic:   STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENTS TO IMPLEMENT TERMS OF UNION OF NEWFOUNDLAND WITH CANADA
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PC

George Clyde Nowlan

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Nowlan:

No; it is not carried. I suggest that the committee would make more progress if we allowed this section to stand, because I want to get more information on it. I made some inquiries from people here in the city who are authorities in these matters, and they concurred in the points I have raised. This is a real problem and the section should not be hurried through.

Topic:   STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENTS TO IMPLEMENT TERMS OF UNION OF NEWFOUNDLAND WITH CANADA
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LIB

Louis Stephen St-Laurent (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Mr. St. Laurent:

I have no desire to hurry it through. If the hon. member says that he wishes to make further investigation and therefore to have the section stand for that purpose, I am agreeable. I did not wish to have it stand for the purpose of getting more information, because I think we have all that can be made available. If the hon. member wishes to make some investigation on his own, and to have the section stand for that purpose, I am agreeable to his suggestion.

Topic:   STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENTS TO IMPLEMENT TERMS OF UNION OF NEWFOUNDLAND WITH CANADA
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PC

Harry Rutherford Jackman

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Jackman:

May I ask a question about a matter which is simple but of considerable interest to people who call themselves philatelists or stamp collectors. I am glad to see the Postmaster General in his seat. This matter might have been taken up under section 7, although I see no relevant section at all. Will Newfoundland unused stamps be of any value after union takes place? Will they be of value for putting on letters in Newfoundland and also in all of Canada?

Topic:   STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENTS TO IMPLEMENT TERMS OF UNION OF NEWFOUNDLAND WITH CANADA
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LIB

Ernest Bertrand (Postmaster General)

Liberal

Mr. Berlrand (Laurier):

I know that officers of my department and of Newfoundland have had conferences and have decided points of interest to both countries. Unfortunately I have not had a chance to get in touch with

them and I do not know exactly what has taken place. If the hon. member will allow the matter to stand I shall answer either tomorrow or the day after.

Section 13 stands.

On section 14-Fugitive Offenders Act.

Topic:   STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENTS TO IMPLEMENT TERMS OF UNION OF NEWFOUNDLAND WITH CANADA
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PC

Arthur Leroy Smith

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Smith (Calgary West):

I wish to ask the

Minister of Justice a question on this section.

I do it under this section because I believe it is the section which has closest reference to the criminal code, although there is some reference to judges at page 21 of the bill, and there is also reference to the mounted police. The Fugitive Offenders Act is regarded as part of our criminal law, and is indeed part of it. When the minister introduced the resolution I asked him whether we were going to have references made, and whether a study had been made of all the statutes. His answer was that that had been done.

I wonder if the minister is sure about that. 1 accepted his word completely, of course. For example, I am thinking of the jurisdiction given to the different courts. I am thinking of summary trials, speedy trials, and those matters which come within the jurisdiction of what we call a magistrate, whose duties are defined in the criminal code.

I know that the exceptions in the code applying to Alberta and Saskatchewan, because at one time they were governed by the Northwest Territories Act, will have no application here. For instance, I turn for a moment, if I may be permitted, to that section at page 21 of the bill which refers to judges. I would be happier if I knew that we were setting up the same system we have in all the other provinces, namely a distinction between superior and district or county courts, as they are variously called.

Turning to the section at page 21, we find this:

Section six of The Judges Act, 1946, chapter fifty-six of the statutes of 1946, is amended by adding thereto the following:

"Three district judges of the admiralty District of Newfoundland, each, 333.33"

I presume that figure represents a monthly wage, or something of that nature. Then, the rest of the section is easily understandable. Have these district judges in admiralty jurisdiction in criminal matters similar to that of a district or county court judge in the other provinces? Sometimes admiralty judges are at sea in matters of admiralty, and they might be just as much at sea in matters connected with the criminal code.

I am wondering just how careful a study has been made of the criminal code with respect to statute amendments. I cannot place my finger at the present time on anything more than I have mentioned; but it does

Statute Law Amendment strike me that in many places in the code there are sections which have particular application to certain areas.

For example, I notice there is nothing in here about the Official Secrets Act. If anyone buys an edited edition of the criminal code he will always find in the back of it the Penitentiary Act and the Fugitive Offenders Act, all of which have to do with the administration of the criminal law of this country. I am just a bit concerned as to whether the situation has been studied with sufficient care so as not to leave ourselves in the air, so to speak, in Newfoundland, in connection with the administration of our criminal law.

Topic:   STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENTS TO IMPLEMENT TERMS OF UNION OF NEWFOUNDLAND WITH CANADA
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LIB

Stuart Sinclair Garson (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. Garson:

If the hon. member will turn to page 9 of the terms of union he will see this:

Subject to these terms, all laws in force in Newfoundland at or immediately prior to the date of union shall continue therein as if the union had not been made, subject nevertheless to be repealed, abolished, or altered by the parliament of Canada or by the legislature of the province of Newfoundland according to the authority of the parliament or of the legislature under the British North America Acts, 1867 to 1946, and all orders, rules and regulations made under any such laws shall likewise continue, subject to be revoked or amended by the body or person that made such orders, rules or regulations or the body or person that has power to make such orders, rules or regulations after the date of union, according to their respective authority under the British North America Acts, 1867 to 1946.

And then subsection (2):

Statutes of the parliament of Canada in force at the date of unionwhich would include the criminal code . . .

-or any part thereof, shall come into force in the province of Newfoundland on a day or days to be fixed by act of the parliament of Canada or by proclamation of the governor general in council issued from time to time, and any such proclamation may provide for the repeal of any of the laws of Newfoundland that

(a) are of general application;

(b) relate to the same subject matter as the statute or part thereof so proclaimed-

That is, if Newfoundland law covers the same subject matter as is covered by federal law, then such Newfoundland law may be repealed. And-

(c) could be repealed by the parliament of Canada under paragraph one of this term.

That is the agreement between the two governments relating to what should be done with regard to the respective laws of the two countries.

That will involve something with which we are not concerned in the bill now before the committee. It will involve bringing into effect, by statute or proclamation, all of those laws of Canada, such as the criminal code- and that is the outstanding example-in the province of Newfoundland. But for that

Statute Law Amendment statute or proclamation those laws would not have any application to Newfoundland, and we must have these federal laws made applicable to Newfoundland.

The statute we have before us today is one covering all the consequential amendments in the various statute laws of Canada, necessitated as a consequence of bringing Newfoundland into the union. In other words, we have for example the Fugitive Offenders Act with a gap in it, because there is no definition of what in Newfoundland shall be a superior court within the meaning of that act. Therefore we must fill that gap.

Addressing myself particularly to my hon. friend's question, these laws such as the criminal code will be brought into force subsequently. What we are doing now is merely tidying up the sections so that when they are brought into force they will mesh in properly with the federal laws applicable to the other provinces on one hand and with the Newfoundland law on the other hand.

The hon. member has referred to summary jurisdiction and summary convictions, and he has referred to district court judges. My answer to the hon. member is that the Department of Justice circularized all the other departments of government asking them to submit, advise or request any consequential amendments in statute law which they desired, and which were within their administration. Then, having received those returns from the various departments, the draftsmen in the Department of Justice collaborated with their legal officers in the preparation of the material which forms the bill now before the committee.

If this bill be passed, then our federal statutes will be in such form that we can proceed to invoke section 18 of the terms of union by proclaiming all the appropriate federal laws as being applicable to the province of Newfoundland. There are three notable exceptions to that, and that is the law relating to income tax. We thought-and, in view of the question he asked me the other day when the bill was at an earlier stage, I think the hon. member will agree with me-that where we are imposing a tax upon a people under an income or any other tax act it is preferable to have any and all revisions of that tax act come in in the form of amendments to the tax act itself, rather than as a section in an omnibus bill such as the one now before us.

Topic:   STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENTS TO IMPLEMENT TERMS OF UNION OF NEWFOUNDLAND WITH CANADA
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February 16, 1949