March 2, 1948

TABLE SHOWING AGE DISTRIBUTION OF THE POTENTIAL LABOUR FORCE 15-04 YEARS BY REGION, 1941-1971


Estimates B and D (000's omitted) Region and Age Group Number Per Cent of Total 15-64 Years 1941 1951 1961 1971 1941 1951 1961 1971CANADA- 15-34 Years .(B) 3,955 4,217 4.278 4,185 52-5 501 46-3 43-0(D) 4,234 4,371 4,538 50-3 46-8 45*035-44 " [DOT] (B) 1,434 1,756 2,058 2,039 191 20-8 22-3 20-9(D) 1,741 2,070 2,041 20-7 45-64 " (B> 2,141 2,455 2,908 31511 28-4 29-1 31-4 36-1(D) 2,443 2,890 3,513 290 310 34-8Maritime Provinces- 15-34 Years * (B) 389 435 460 474 55-7 53-7 49-5 46 0(D) 432 464 506 54-2 35-44 " .(B) 122 165 208 213 17-5 20-4 22-4 20-6(D) 159 205 210 20-0 45-64 " [DOT] (B) 187 210 261 344 26-8 25-9 28 1 33-4(D) 206 254 338 25-8 27-5 32 1Quebec- 15-34 Years .(B) 1,184 1,337 1,423 1,418 56-6 53-7 49-7 45-5(D) 1,336 1,456 1 547 53-Q 35-44 " [DOT] (B) 400 510 621 668 19-1 20-5 21-7 21 -4(D) 505 621 672 ?n.2 45-64 " [DOT] (B) 508 644 821 1,032 24-3 25-8 28-6 33-1(D) 639 815 1,029 25-8 28-2 31-7Ontario- 15-34 Years [DOT] (B) 1,265 1,272 1,244 1,176 49-4 46-3 43-0 40-5(D) 1.302 1,291 1,289 46-6 35-44 " (B) 518 587 639 602 20-2 21-3 22-1 20-7(D) 595 660 610 21 -3 45-64 " .(B) 779 891 1,007 1,128 30-4 32-4 34-8 38-8(D) 898 1,019 1,155 32-1 34-3 37-8Prairie Provinces- 15-34 Years [DOT] (B) 847 926 910 887 52-9 51-3 46-1 42*2(D) 879 882 910 51 5 47*1 35-44 " [DOT] (B) 287 364 460 447 17-9 20-1 23-3 21-3(D) 335 430 427 19-6 4.5-64 " .(B) 468 516 003 768 29-2 28-6 30-6 36-5(D) 494 562 714 28-9 30-0 34-8British Columbia- 15-34 " .(B) 270 247 241 230 46-9 43-2 411 39*8(D) 285 278 286 44-7 35-44 " .(B) 107 130 130 109 18-6 22-8 22-1 18-9(D) 147 154 122 45-64 " * (B) 199 194 216 239 34-5 340 36-8 41-3(D) 206 240 277 32-3 35-7 40-4 I move on to suggest that parliament must begin to think pretty seriously about this whole problem right away. One thing that we must try to resolve is this question of contributory or non-contributory old age pensions. No one can deny that it is impossible to think of making the present pension contributory or of attaching any contribution as a necessary part of the pension which people are now receiving or which people of fifty-five, sixty and sixty-five years of age will be receiving in due course. That phase of the matter has to be looked at by itself. There is beginning to develop an opinion in Canada, in the trade union movement for example, that so far as younger Canadians are concerned it would be a good idea to have some kind of contributory plan started now; with individuals, industry and the government all taking part; the whole thought being that 18D2 The Address-Mr. Knowles



it will not be satisfactory to wake up in 1971 to discover that the problem has become a much larger one and that we had not made plans for it back in 1948. When you start to talk about a contributory plan I say that you must keep separate the case of those on the present inadequate old age pension and you must realize also that any proper social security plan must be an over-all plan. It is no good having a contributory scheme for old age pensions here, a contributory scheme for health insurance there and a contributory scheme for unemployment insurance some place else, and have other schemes as well which fail to interlock. The result is that the cost becomes prohibitive and the benefits inadequate. If we can get going with an over-all scheme it would be possible at reasonable cost to provide security in that way and also to remove any question as to the rights of people to these benefits. Despite all the boasting that hon, members opposite like to do, the fact is that we in Canada are far behind in the matter of an over-all social security plan. I want to point out that that is not the only side of the picture. One must not think we are going to provide an adequate old age security plan in 1971 simply by having a contributory plan started now. What is really required to have adequate old age security is to have a planned economy that accepts it as proper that one section of the community, namely the children, are cared for with respect to all their needs, their wants and their rights out of the whole national wealth and similarly that another section of the community, namely those of sixty, sixty-five years and up, are equally well provided for out of the current production at the time the people are at those ages. We have already had experience with superannuation benefits of one kind and another completely losing their value because of the change in the value of money, and we know also that the standard of living changes as decades come and go. Here is hoping that our standard of living will go up in the next few decades. Old age security in 1971 must not be security in terms of what we think would be sufficient in 1948; it must be related to economic conditions of that time. So I submit that this calls not only for having some kind of a contributory plan started now, one which does not require contributions of those who are at present receiving old age pensions or who are near to receiving them, but also for economic planning which includes an overall social security arrangement.


PC

John George Diefenbaker

Progressive Conservative

Mr. DIEFENBAKER:

At what age would you start contributions?

Topic:   QUESTIONS AFFECTING MEMBERS' TRANSPORTATION -WIVES AND DEPENDENT MEMBERS OF FAMILIES
Subtopic:   TABLE SHOWING AGE DISTRIBUTION OF THE POTENTIAL LABOUR FORCE 15-04 YEARS BY REGION, 1941-1971
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CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. KNOWLES:

I submit that it could be built on to the unemployment insurance structure and started at working ages, or at twenty-one years in most cases. As I have already indicated, it should be a scheme that covers all things that hit a person over which he has no control, such as unemployment, ill health, accidents, old age and such exigencies as are covered in a social security plan such as is now in force in countries like the United Kingdom.

I submit that in the face of the problem and the opportunity that is coming in the next twenty-five years, in the face of what we have demonstrated we can do in the way of organizing to meet the challenge of war when it comes, it is not good enough for us to continue with an old age pension plan that provides 830 a month at age seventy with all the means test restrictions that we have at the present time. I do not think the government can be condemned too strongly for the way in which it has trifled with this matter. We had the offer to the provinces in the late summer of 1915, and ever since then, with respect to both improved old age pensions and a national health plan of any kind, we get the answer that it depends upon the provinces agreeing to certain dominion-provincial arrangements. That is not economic planning. That is not responsible government as I see it.

I feel bitterly about the way in which this federal government has jockeyed the various provinces into feeling that they have to do something to meet the present plight of our old age pensioners. It is very nice for the old person of seventy, seventy-five or eighty years of age who is now on pension to get some increase from the provincial government so that he can enjoy it while he is still with us. I would not deprive those people of that for one moment. But there is an element of tragedy in this. To the extent to which the government has forced the provinces to increase their share of old age pensions, this country has retreated from the position that we had gained where the federal government was paying 75 per cent of the cost of old age pensions. That is not enough; it should be 100 per cent. We started the government in that direction some years ago when it went up from 50 per cent to 75 per cent, but now the Minister of National Health and Welfare has it to his doubtful credit that he has reduced that percentage.

I want to see these older people get every dollar they can, no matter from what source it comes, but in the long run it is simply bedevilling the whole concept of an adequate old age pension plan fully carried by the

The Address-Mr. Knowles

people of Canada as a whole through the one section of government that can carry it, namely the federal government here at Ottawa. I hope that the answer the Minister of National Health and Welfare gave to me this afternoon that the government's plans with regard to improved old age pensions would be made known in due course was not just a stock answer. I hope "due course" means some time this session and that we shall yet get some reasonably improved plan for the the people now' in the older age'brackets and also have a beginning toward a plan to meet the problem and the opportunity that will confront us in the years that lie ahead.

My time ds about up. but I wanted to make passing reference to some other groups of older people in our society who in my view have been treated very poorly.

Topic:   QUESTIONS AFFECTING MEMBERS' TRANSPORTATION -WIVES AND DEPENDENT MEMBERS OF FAMILIES
Subtopic:   TABLE SHOWING AGE DISTRIBUTION OF THE POTENTIAL LABOUR FORCE 15-04 YEARS BY REGION, 1941-1971
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PC

John George Diefenbaker

Progressive Conservative

Mr. DIEFENBAKER:

Where the dominion fails to discharge its responsibility in providing suitable and proper old age pensions, does the province not then have some responsibility?

Topic:   QUESTIONS AFFECTING MEMBERS' TRANSPORTATION -WIVES AND DEPENDENT MEMBERS OF FAMILIES
Subtopic:   TABLE SHOWING AGE DISTRIBUTION OF THE POTENTIAL LABOUR FORCE 15-04 YEARS BY REGION, 1941-1971
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CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. KNOWLES:

By all means. The provinces have to be human if this government is not.

My colleague, the hon. member for Winnipeg North (Mr. Stewart), dealt with a problem last night which both he and I have raised in this house a number of times, the plight of superannuated civil servants. The figures my colleague gave last night underlined the seriousness of their problem. I shall not take time to repeat those figures or to give similar ones, but may I say that I, too, was bitterly disappointed when the Minister of Finance (Mr. Abbott), after all the promises we had last year from him to give consideration to this matter, announced on January 23 of this year:

While it is recognized that superannuated civil servants encounter difficulties during periods of rising costs, these are similar to the difficulties faced by other retired persons living on pensions, annuities or other savings, and the government does not consider that it would be fair or proper in these circumstances to single out its former employees for special assistance.

That is an argument which looks at three people, A, B and C, all starving, and says: We are sorry that we cannot do anything for A and B, so it would not be fair to them for us to keep C alive. So far as we are concerned, that is not a satisfactory answer.

I have here a specific case of a retired civil servant in the city of Winnipeg who is also a veteran of the first world war. Had he not earned a civil service pension of $58.85 a month-that is all he is getting and he is one

of the favoured ones-he points out that he could now qualify for a burnt-out pension of $60.83; or, if not that, he could qualify for an old age pension of $60 a month for himself and his wife. Here are three different superannuation amounts that he might have qualified for, but he can only draw one, and that happens to be his civil service superannuation of $58.85 a month. That individual case epitomizes the unfairness that exists with respect to all these three groups, old age pensioners, superannuated civil servants and burnt-out veterans. Had time permitted, I would have gone in more detail into the plight of burnt-out veterans; but, as time is short, I just add my plea to the government to bring in that legislation soon and to make the increase much larger than has been indicated thus far and to grant a reasonable increase also to the widows of the non-pen-sioned veterans, who thus far are still getting only $30.41 a month-a disgrace to this country.

I sense, Mr. Speaker, that you are getting to the edge of your chair and so I shall resume my seat in a moment. But before I sit down I want to speak of two other groups of old people. They are selected groups, but their plight also highlights the need of an over-all social security program.

I refer to the retired employees of the Canadian National Railways, and the Canadian Pacific non-pensioned employees about whom I have spoken so often. Incidentally, the other day the Minister of Transport (Mr. Chevrier), answering the hon. member for Lake Centre (Mr. Diefenbaker), said that in view of the government's answer that it could not do anything for superannuated civil servants, he felt it would not be fair for him to ask the Canadian National Railways to increase the retirement benefits of their employees, even those receiving only the basic $25 a month. So there you have the government saying that not only C shall starve but B too. The government should be giving a lead in these matters, instead of using the fact that others are not doing anything as an excuse for inaction on their part.

I thank you, Mr. Speaker, for your generosity and I hope that the house will realize that, although democracy calls for many other things as well, at the very least it must provide security for our old people, and sooner or later that includes us all.

Topic:   QUESTIONS AFFECTING MEMBERS' TRANSPORTATION -WIVES AND DEPENDENT MEMBERS OF FAMILIES
Subtopic:   TABLE SHOWING AGE DISTRIBUTION OF THE POTENTIAL LABOUR FORCE 15-04 YEARS BY REGION, 1941-1971
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LIB

Donald Ferguson Brown

Liberal

Mr. D. F. BROWN (Essex West):

Mr. Speaker, it had not been my intention to participate in this debate, but during the course of the debate there have arisen in my constituency some problems which, although having a

1S04

The Address-Mr. Brown

local aspect, do affect the national economy. There have also been referred to in this debate, some matters which affect my constituency and on which I should like to make some comment.

But may I first offer my congratulations to the mover (Mr. Dion) and the seconder (Mr. Dickey) of the address. It may be we have by this time forgotten that of which they spoke, but may I, in offering them my congratulations, state that in my humble opinion they upheld the dignity, integrity and ability of that section of the house which we affectionately call Little Chicago.

Recently a situation has arisen which has caused a shut-down of a large number of industrial plants, resulting in considerable unemployment and temporary hardships to many thousands of industrial workers. This was due to the failure of the supply of natural gas so-called, or should I say fuel gas, to meet the demand caused by the severe winter which resulted in an increased consumption by householders. I said natural gas so-called, because I understand that at the present time only about 45 per cent of the present supply can be classed as natural gas. I am informed that a great deal of our supply of gas for the Windsor area is stored in underground wells and drawn upon as the need arises, as a result of manufacturing processes at Sarnia, Ontario. We may as well, therefore, face the fact that the supply of natural gas, especially in southwestern Ontario, is rapidly being depleted. In fact, from official sources at the disposal of all members I have observed that in 1940 in the whole province of Ontario 13,000,000 cubic feet of gas were produced, which had dropped in 1946 to 6,000,000 cubic feet, while natural gas in the province of Alberta had increased from 17,000.000 million cubic feet in 1936 to over 40,000,000 cubic feet in 1946.

The city of Windsor I understand to be the largest automobile manufacturing centre in the British empire, as well as the largest pharmaceutical centre in the British Empire. We also produce a great percentage of the salt, with its by-products of chlorine, caustics and other chemicals consumed in the Dominion of Canada, so that a stoppage of activities in these industries cannot but be reflected in the economy of the whole dominion which depends so largely on the commodities we produce.

If, therefore, we are not to be able to depend on natural gas for our industrial activities during critical weather conditions it will be necessary that we take steps to provide some other fuel to be consumed. The

fMr. Brown.]

four main sources of heat generally employed either for commercial or domestic consumption, and excluding atomic energy, are coal, gas, oil and hydro-electric power.

During world war I, I am informed that, in the 'United States alone, coal furnished 80 per cent of the energy used in that country. Oil supplied 12 per. cent and the others about 4 per cent each. Since then, a tremendous change has taken place. I am now informed that, in the United States, the use of natural gas has jumped 434 per cent, oil, 413 per cent, hydro-electric power, 350 per cent, but coal consumption has risen only about 5-5 per cent.

So that it is that in 1947, it is estimated coal furnished about 47 per cent of the power' for heating in the United States; oil supplied about 30 per cent; natural gas 12 per cent, and hydro-electric power 11 per cent. It would therefore seem that a continuing increase in the demand for oil and gas in this country as well as in the United States would be inevitable. We have huge supplies of natural gas as well as coal in Alberta, but because of the long distance there is no means, in southwestern Ontario especially, of tapping these supplies. On the other hand, we have supplies of coal in the maritime provinces and in the western provinces, but by reason of the long haul these do not stand competition with United States producers.

It is further estimated that on the basis of the current production the supply of crude oil is calculated to last about ten or eleven years at today's accelerated consumption pace. Further, we cannot look too hopefully to a longterm supply of crude oil. Natural gas, on the other hand, is estimated to have a lifetime of about thirty-three years. There appears, however, to be a sufficient supply of coal, anthracite, bituminous and lignite, for many years to come.

It is, therefore, necessary for us to take stock and lay long-term plans to meet the demands of liquid or gas fuel. In the United States the secretary of the interior has obtained an appropriation of $9 billion for a synthetic oil program, to study ways and means of converting natural gas into synthetic gasoline and diesel oil as a short-term program, and later to convert coal to oil or gas as a long-term program. The transition to a synthetic era will doubtless come as needed and be spurred on or retarded by developments in technology and more knowledge of atomic energy, or by the discovery of more oil resources.

I am informed that the most promising solution of the short-term program is the production of gasoline and diesel oil from

The Address-Mr. Brown

natural gas. The Standard Oil Development Company recently dedicated a research laboratory at Baton Rouge, Louisiana, which will work with the pilot plants in that area now producing petroleum products, gas and oil. Other plants are now planned in Texas and Kansas.

We have in the city of Windsor and environs facilities to produce annually a surplus of an estimated three and a half billion cubic feet of coke-oven gas, which would contribute largely to the supply of fuel gas in the highly industrialized area of southwestern Ontario for all time to come. This could be produced if the blast furnaces now erected on the Dominion Steel property at Ojibway, adjacent to the city of Windsor, were put into operation. This property is situated on one of the finest inland waterways in the world. It has excellent harbour facilities, highway facilities, and every other essential for the successful operation of a steel plant, which is so vital to the expanding economy of the dominion.

May I, therefore, urge the government to take every step possible in seeing that all the possibilities of this project, on which so many hundreds of thousands of dollars have been expended, is utilized to the fullest extent, to the benefit not only of the city of Windsor, but of the whole Dominion of Canada in making accessible these basic products which are so badly needed.

May I further urge the government to make such appropriations as are necessary to explore the possibilities of converting the vast supplies of natural gas into gasoline and oil and of converting coal into oil, not only as a means of satisfying domestic consumption for peacetime activities but as a further means of national defence. This, as I have stated, is being carried on in the United States and was done successfully in Germany and other countries, and Canada takes second place to no country in national research.

There is another matter which I should like to deal with briefly since it is wholly within my constituency, a matter which I have been dealing with since the summer of 1946. It has to do with the veterans land project known as the Roseland farm sub-division and the Oliver farm sub-division. My interest in this matter has been to see that these veterans, who have fought and bled and suffered for us' should now be rehabilitated in an atmosphere of industry, contentment and security, that they be re-established in our community where they may rear their children in an atmosphere of peace and quietness, and till their gardens, deriving therefrom as much satisfaction as is humanly possible. It is my hope that these 5849-115

veterans may continue to enter into the life of the community, socially, economically and politically, to the fullest extent.

I do not propose to thresh old straw from which all the wheat has been removed. Suffice it to say that I propose to continue, to the best of my ability, to serve the people of these sub-divisions as my constituents. The Roseland sub-division is probably one of the most beautiful locations for such a project to be found anywhere. This sub-division is approximately two miles from the business area of the city of Windsor. It has winding drives, small and neat white homes which circle a nine-hole golf course, well treed and with well kept greens and fairways. The possibilities of improvement of this sub-division cannot be reckoned, for it is an area in which any veteran may be proud to live. The Oliver farm sub-division, which is a short distance away and on the same highway, is a more recently developed project which also has winding drives and is easily accessible to the main part of the city by two highways. It is also in close proximity to another golf course.

It is regrettable, however, that these two sub-divisions are not serviced by a school, particularly a school which would accommodate the very small pupils. The township, by reason of its financial position, is not able to finance a school building for these areas, and the federal authorities have no jurisdiction in educational matters.

I personally accompanied the township representatives and the representatives of the Department of Veterans Affairs, including the trustees of the township of Sandwich West school board, who have been doing such a magnificent job, in waiting upon the Premier of Ontario and other officials of that governmental body. It is to be hoped that some provision will soon be made, by the authorities having jurisdiction, to provide some accommodation at an early day. I might state that the Veterans Land Act administration has already indicated that it will provide the land at any time for a school, at no charge.

The hon. member for Lambton West (Mr. Murphy), however, has raised a point on which I think I should make some comment, for he has stated, at page 1209 of Hansard the following. I do not propose to read all of it, but in referring to a committee which was formed for the purpose of seeing that the veterans were getting fair value for their money he has this to say, in part:

The valuations that were made by this committee were made last December.

Further on:

I regret to say this, but it is nevertheless necessary that I should, because the minister in

The Address-Mr. Brown

his statement emphasized that the valuators bad never seen the prices previously quoted by the Veterans Land Act administration.

Then a little further on he says:

I must also refer briefly to some two or three of the valuations of the Windsor area rather than give the figures. The information is available in the report which the minister tabled. On >a great many of the houses there was a difference of only a few dollars, $10, $12, $15 and $25 which would) indicate to me, or to anyone else, that this committee certainly must have bad this report, because it is almost physically and mentally impossible for valuators to valuate one hundred houses and come within $10, $15, $20 or $25 of the price which the government had set as the price to the veterans.

There is, of course, no reference there to the fact that this committee also found on other houses prices differentiating to the extent of about SI ,000; that is to say, the price on the house as set by the Veterans Land Act administration was reduced by nearly $1,000. I am not sure whether the hon. member, in making the remarks, intended them as a reflection upon the members of this committee who, not being members of this house, are not here to defend themselves. But since I had a great deal to do with influencing the government in appointing this committee, I should like to make some comment thereon. Mr. J. E. L. Price, who was chairman of the committee, is of Montreal. He had been unknown to me except by reputation which, I might state, was very high. Mr. Price, however, is chairman of the Canadian Legion national housing committee, and has probably done more, as a private individual, for the housing of veterans than any other person in Canada. Furthermore, I am willing to accept the advice of the Canadian Legion as to his integrity, ability and reputation. I, however, know the other two members of the committee who made the valuation on the Windsor houses and have known them for many years. These men were picked because of their outstanding ability in their respective fields, their reputations for fairness and integrity, and certainly because of no political affiliation; for none of these three gentlemen, to say the least, has been known as a member of the political party to which I adhere.

I attended the opening sessions of this committee and accompanied them on part of their inspection; and whenever any suggestion of any price was mentioned, they were vigorous in their rejection of any such assistance. All these gentlemen are returned soldiers themselves and interested in veterans' activities; and through you, Mr. Speaker, I want to express to them my gratitude for the work

which they undertook solely as a public service in seeing that the veteran obtained full value for his money.

There is another item which I should like to mention briefly in conclusion, and it has to do with a class of persons who are not in this house and who are not in a position to defend themselves. Of course I realize that, from a political point of view, it is never profitable to defend civil servants. But I hear from time to time many stories as to the operation of various departments. One story which obtained considerable publicity and notoriety had to do with the customs officials in my constituency. It appeared that at one time there had crossed at Windsor a car which contained an invalid who was returning from a hospital where she had undergone an operation. These people-and I believe there were three of them-when asked if they had anything to declare, said, "We have some gifts in the trunk". The examiner went to the trunk and tore the claws off (he fur and damaged the car, so it was reported. Then the officer is reported to have made them move the lady, who was an invalid, inside the customs house where she was kept for quite a while. The officer also is reported to have said, "You did not tell us about this item and that item". And the reply was, "I told you that we had gifts, and the names are on them". That might be misleading because the true facts of the case are as follows. Upon being requested to declare any goods to customs, they mentioned a few groceries and some small Christmas gifts which they had been given at Christmas and were now bringing into Canada. Their baggage was brought into the office and examined by a female examiner who found several articles of new clothing. As each article was found, one lady remarked, "My sister gave me that for my daughter-in-law," and each such item was allowed entry. These consisted of several articles, including a cotton playsuit, a pair of shoes the lady was wearing, a pair of shoes the gentleman was wearing and other small articles, although these were not packaged as gifts. On examining the automobile three children's dresses, two small lamps, and two pairs of ladies' shoes were found in the trunk of the car, and these goods still had the price tags attached. While they were also stated to be gifts from friends in the United States, after further questioning one lady admitted she had purchased them herself in the United States. Upon further search of the automobile, one carton of cigarettes was found concealed in a bag of groceries, and six cartons of cigarettes were found under the

The Address-Mr. Brown

front seat. These were placed under seizure because no declaration had been made.

On other occasions we have also been told that it would be advisable or expeditious to hold sort of sales or educational meetings with the examiners located at the border in order to attempt to turn them into diplomatic policemen. It is reported that the one making the statement had noticed quite a few oases at the border where examiners became rough and tough. I feel sure that the hon. member for London (Mr. Manross), who is such a congenial member of this house, never meant any offence to these public servants, and I am sure that he with his charming personality has had no difficulty personally. But his remarks, if hon. members wish to look them up, may be found at page 1157 of Hansard. You know, Mr. Speaker, I have found that these men referred to as the examiners usually treat a traveller somewhat in the same manner as the traveller treats the examiner. I do not deny that because of the imposition of the restrictions as of November 17, when no advice was given to the officers, nor could it be given to them, many assumed their responsibilities conscientiously. Many were new men who had been taken on without instruction. It is only fair to say, however, that these officers, most of whom had been recently released from the armed services, were and are trying to do a job conscientiously and efficiently. I too realize that these officers are salesmen for the Dominion of Canada; and since they have a valuable and serviceable product to sell I know they will do a good job. We as civilians can be of immeasurable assistance to them in trying to make their job, which in itself may be unpleasant, a cheerful and pleasant experience, if we realize the tension under which they are working and are willing to co-operate with them to the fullest extent. I have always found that if I approached these officers with a smile and showed courtesy and consideration, I received similar treatment from them, and vice versa.

So, if the department decides to hold these sales or educational meetings, as suggested by the hon. member, let us not restrict them to customs or immigration officers. Let all the citizens of Canada be invited to participate, to show the world we can live in unity, industry and prosperity.

Topic:   QUESTIONS AFFECTING MEMBERS' TRANSPORTATION -WIVES AND DEPENDENT MEMBERS OF FAMILIES
Subtopic:   TABLE SHOWING AGE DISTRIBUTION OF THE POTENTIAL LABOUR FORCE 15-04 YEARS BY REGION, 1941-1971
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PC

Joseph Warner Murphy

Progressive Conservative

Mr. MURPHY:

I wonder if the hon. member would permit a question before he takes his seat?

Topic:   QUESTIONS AFFECTING MEMBERS' TRANSPORTATION -WIVES AND DEPENDENT MEMBERS OF FAMILIES
Subtopic:   TABLE SHOWING AGE DISTRIBUTION OF THE POTENTIAL LABOUR FORCE 15-04 YEARS BY REGION, 1941-1971
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LIB

Donald Ferguson Brown

Liberal

Mr. BROWN:

Glad to.

5849-115i

Topic:   QUESTIONS AFFECTING MEMBERS' TRANSPORTATION -WIVES AND DEPENDENT MEMBERS OF FAMILIES
Subtopic:   TABLE SHOWING AGE DISTRIBUTION OF THE POTENTIAL LABOUR FORCE 15-04 YEARS BY REGION, 1941-1971
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PC

Joseph Warner Murphy

Progressive Conservative

Mr. MURPHY:

In view of what he said with respect to the valuation of these veterans' homes being made in December, 1947, does he now think the price to the veteran should be 25 per cent, or 33 j per cent less, inasmuch as it was 1946 when they were asked to buy the homes?

Topic:   QUESTIONS AFFECTING MEMBERS' TRANSPORTATION -WIVES AND DEPENDENT MEMBERS OF FAMILIES
Subtopic:   TABLE SHOWING AGE DISTRIBUTION OF THE POTENTIAL LABOUR FORCE 15-04 YEARS BY REGION, 1941-1971
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LIB

Donald Ferguson Brown

Liberal

Mr. BROWN:

As I understand the question, the interrogator would like to find out my personal opinion with respect to the valuation of a house in 1947, and whether or not I believe that house is now worth perhaps 25 per cent more than in 1945. My thought is that the veteran should get whatever he can for his money. The committee that was formed was asked to value the house as it stood, without any strings. That is my understanding, though, of course, the Minister of Veterans Affairs (Mr. Gregg) can answer for his department. If my hon. friend is trying to ask me whether the cost of building a house was greater in 1947 than in 1945, my answer would be yes, that it was higher in 1947. On the other hand, what have they bought? I do not know the exact number, but not a great many have signed contracts. So I would say to them that they should decide whether or not they want to buy these houses at the figure for which they are being sold. If they do not I am sure no pressure will be exerted upon them; and if there is any pressure I know, and I am sure the Minister of Veterans Affairs knows, I shall be the first to protest.

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PC

Wilfrid Garfield Case

Progressive Conservative

Mr. W. GARFIELD CASE (Grey North):

At the outset, Mr. Speaker, I feel I should say that the hon. member for Essex West (Mr. Brown) is in much better form when speaking of his wonderful city of Windsor than when defending the position of the administration with respect to veterans' homes and holdings.

For a great while I have tried to determine why it is considered the proper thing immediately to offer congratulations to the hon. members- who were selected to move and second the address in reply to the speech from the throne, though I know one can appreciate their contributions. Only recently, however,

I came to the conclusion that they were to be congratulated because of the courageous effort they made to bolster an administration which, by the very terms of the speech from the throne and in its general plans, offers no sense of direction and no statement of policy with respect to the economic problems which beset our country.

Tonight I felt that I should like to dwell for a little while on this great country of

The Address-Mr. Case

Canada and to evaluate our position in regard to the situation which prevails in the world today. Sometimes I think we are too modest, that we do not emphasize sufficiently the great advantages Canadian citizenship offers. Recently I was greatly impressed when, in company with the hon. member for Trinity (Mr. Skey), I had luncheon with a Polish gentleman who came to this country during the days when the Polish legion was recruiting in Canada and drawing many recruits from Chicago and Detroit. After the United States came into the war those sources of recruits dried up; but this gentleman, who had escaped from Poland at the risk of his life with his wife and two small children, continued to make his home in Canada. He is now located in one of our substantial cities, where he has established a manufacturing plant which now employs over 250 people. What he said to my hon. friend and myself that day, as to his vivid realization of the advantages offered by the land of his adoption, impressed me greatly. He said, "Recently I was addressing a service club. I said to the people gathered there that very few of them realized the rich blessings they enjoy in this great land of freedom, this land of golden opportunity, this land which is indeed a challenge to all comers." So I feel that Canadians are prone to regard too lightly the great advantages we enjoy in this country. If we might travel across this vast dominion from the tide-scoured shores of the Atlantic coast right through to the foothills of the Rockies, indeed to the Pacific coast; if we might grasp the thought that our great country stretches almost 4,000 miles along its southern border and reaches northward from the 49th parallel right through to the arctic snows; if we could but conceive that within this vast area is the workshop of Canada, we might appreciate these advantages. We are indeed a sparsely populated country. About 12,000,000 people live within this vast expanse of territory and the challenge is there for them to apply their energies and ingenuity and to exhaust their ambitions in this land of golden opportunity.

When I stop to think of what leadership means, and what an administration can do for a nation and its general over-all economy, I am shocked to think today that the very administration which has been so fortunate, possibly, in its choice of name as to call itself Liberal, has cast upon this young nation a sense of confusion and doubt which is baffling businessmen and enterprise to the extent that we indeed will not reach our greatest destiny. Yet but a few short months ago Canada stood on the threshold of her greatest possible industrial expansion.

Today we have a so-called austerity program introduced by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Abbott) and sponsored largely by the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Howe) which, in their own language, offers no sense of security for planning in the future. Indeed, Mr. Speaker, it is the very opposite. There is only one way we can seek to beat inflation and that is by increased production. And we shall not have that increased production so long as we continue to apply the brakes on industry and seek to nullify the productive capacity of the people. Yet we find that that is what is taking place.

Where can one find an industrialist in Canada who would be willing at this moment to retool his plant with a view to producing parts for motorcars or anything else when, by the very words of the Minister of Trade and Commerce, this program may be in effect for only a few short months? I would ask a somewhat similar question with regard to our market gardeners and vegetable growers, bearing in mind that it is not so many years ago that Canada was to a great extent self-sufficient in the production of many of her vegetables. Market gardeners would pit their cabbages and other produce, and would remove it from the pits as the season progressed so that it would find its way to market. But they had no sense of security. United1 States produce reached our markets. Today, when we have advanced so far and now have the finest refrigeration facilities, if our market gardeners were told that they might expect to supply the Canadian market even during the coming winter I am sure a great effort would be made to find means whereby their products would be made available. But the Minister of Finance has said he anticipates this program will remain in effect at least until the end of 1948 and possibly into 1949. So he is going to kill off another winter when we shall have a great deal of difficulty in getting along.

As I listened1 tonight to the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles), I could not help noting the tremendous stress he was placing upon social security. So many things are done in the name of social security that I think they should be carefully reviewed in relation to the general welfare of our nation. It is so easy to encourage our people to become a nation of leaners so that they will depend upon some central authority for their security, rather than depend upon their initiative and their own ambition.

Let me remind the house that but a few short years ago, as we measure history, this great country of ours was hewn from the forest by a group of pioneers who left their

The Address-Mr. Case

homes and comforts, and whatever security was available to them, to take their chances in a new world. They laid the foundation upon which we, the succeeding generations, have continued to build.

We have not failed in our task; but this very insidious thing which is creeping among the people of our land, the thing which is encouraging our people to lean upon somebody else for their security and their sense of direction, ..this very thing which is robbing them of ambition and their initiative to do things is creeping into the very administration itself.

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CCF

Alexander Malcolm Nicholson

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. NICHOLSON:

You are not against old age pensions, are you?

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PC

Wilfrid Garfield Case

Progressive Conservative

Mr. CASE:

I should like to say this to my hon. friend, that I am not really against anything. I am for a lot of things. And if he will follow me far enough, and try to keep up with me, probably he will change his opinion, too.

Let me say that this very thing has crept into the administration itself; until today we find the government of Canada in the position where they are leaning upon somebody else. Our whole future economic program is predicated upon what the United States of America may do with respect to the Marshall plan.

Irrespective of this vast expanse of territory which challenges every citizen and encourages us to produce from its rich resources, there is no planning being done to guarantee that we can travel under our own steam. We are depending upon somebody else, whereas we should be laying plans for ourselves.

Probably the greatest and most fatal error that was made was when we introduced into this country parity with respect to our money. I am not a convert in any sense, and no one will challenge me as to where I stood when the minister made his announcement; because on July 5, 1946, the Minister of Finance announced parity with the United States dollar, and on July 16, 1946, which would be a reasonable period of time in which I might be heard in debate, I challenged the minister's position and devoted more than a column of Hansard to criticizing the move the government had made, because I realize that the more we interfere with natural laws, the more difficult it will be to govern. The great advantage which we enjoyed with our 90-cent dollar has been taken from us, and I do not know why. Today Canada has a dishonest dollar. We must admit that, because it is not worth 100 cents in relation to the United States dollar and because it can be bought for 80 cents in New York. The best method we could have employed to adjust that difference

was to produce goods and services and let them flow across the border. In that way the situation would have corrected itself. But, instead, we sought to place an artificial structure under the one commodity which has more to do with regulating our general prosperity than anything else one can think of.

United States plants were bound to come to Canada and so was foreign capital. Well within our grasp lay the markets of the world as long as the United States dollar was accepted as the standard of value. I say that the government were indeed ill advised when they placed under our dollar an artificial structure which has since placed upon our industry and our enterprise the greatest possible handicap that could be placed upon it.

What has happened? Let us take a look at our natural resources. Let us look at our gold mining industry. This industry had arrived at a place where it was beginning to give an account of itself. After all, gold is a valuable commodity. It is durable and requires little space for storage. All down through the ages it has been accepted as [DOT] a standard of value throughout the world. History reveals that the nations which possessed the most gold were usually in the driver's seat. Yet we have dissipated and thrown away the great advantage we had to develop our huge gold mining resources.

Gold in the rock is of very little value and you may say that it is of very little value when sterilized and lying in the vaults at Fort Knox. But it does not need to lie in the vaults at Fort Knox. Surely we as a Canadian nation, masters in our own house, could have continued to mine the gold and offer our basic industries encouragement so that we could store the gold and hold it against balances of foreign trade. Let us take our great pulpwood industry. We ship from 90 to 94 per cent of our output to the United States of America and, after all, we are the largest producers of pulpwood products in the world. That industry was receiving the advantage of the premium as were our farmers who were selling their registered herds south of the border.

Government has been carried on at the administrative level and they have failed to give us a sense of leadership. We judge them by their record. We judge them by the development of our nation. We judge them by the increase in our population. As was said a few days ago during this debate, we have not even a highway across our great country on which we can travel from one coast to the other. Rich and all as we are in great resources, we have failed to apply them

The Address-Mr. Case

for the benefit of the nation and in many instances we have allowed them to be exploited for the benefit of the privileged few.

Canada is in a strategic position inasmuch as the smaller nations of the world look to her to give them a sense of leadership. Fortunately we are well situated, having to the south of us a great and friendly neighbour whose system of government is much the same as our own. It is admitted to be a system of democratic government and I do not think anyone will question that. Let me say to my hon. friend who interrupted me a moment ago that there is no substitute for democracy except dictatorship. The moment you introduce any other system of government, you deny the individual that great and cherished right he possesses to think for himself and to express his opinion as he sees fit.

In seeking to give this sense of leadership to the world, I wonder how well we shall discharge that great responsibility. I think back to the dark days of the war when the government was being carried on by a previous administration led by the present Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King), I well remember that during the general election of 1945 it was freely said that the King administration should be returned to power because the Prime Minister was the only one properly qualified to represent Canada at the peace jonference.

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?

An hon. MEMBER:

Hear, hear.

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PC

Wilfrid Garfield Case

Progressive Conservative

Mr. CASE:

My hon. friend says, "Hear, hear," and I say we should have been represented at the peace conference. But let me tell you the type of leadership we have been given. When Great Britain was hard pressed for manpower, appeals were made to Canada to leave our troops to assist in the occupation of Germany, but we brought them away. Among the Prime Minister's souvenirs is the correspondence which deals with that and which he has not revealed. Whether that played a full part in future events, I do not know, but I know that it had a considerable effect. I do not say that seasoned troops should1 have been kept there, but there were thousands of young Canadians who had been trained and equipped for combat and who would probably have welcomed the opportunity to travel overseas for greater experience. They could have mingled with seasoned troops and have assisted in the occupation of Germany. We do not know at this moment just how costly our withdrawal may have been. We little realize the unfortunate situation which is building up in Europe today.

I recall also the time of the San Francisco conference when delegates were being named. I well remember the hon. member for Peel (Mr. Graydon), who was leading the opposition at that time, making an appeal to the Prime Minister that the present leader of the opposition (Mr. Bracken) be one of the delegates to San Francisco. The Prime Minister replied that he did not think that one who was not a member of the house should attend the conference, and, of course, the present leader of the opposition did not attend.

It is almost like irony of fate to realize that when it came time to sign the united nations pact the situation was reversed. The Prime Minister no longer held a seat in the House of Commons while the leader of the opposition did. In spite of that fact, the Prime Minister, without a seat in the house, flew to San Francisco to affix his name to the united nations pact. That meant, in effect, we will go to the aid of the other nations if they are attacked. More recently I listened to the Secretary of State for External Affairs (Mr. St. Laurent) saying that Canada would respect her obligations and play her part when called upon in the Palestine situation. We have probably been long on showmanship but short on practicality, because the Prime Minister to my knowledge has never had the courage to tell this house or the Canadian people what method he intends to employ to honour our obligations under the united nations pact which he signed.

When I made my maiden speech in this house after the Grey North by-election I challenged the administration to take time by the forelock when peace came so that as members of this house and citizens of this country we might know what our future manpower policy was to be. But constantly politics interferes with our better judgment and we are leaving something of vital concern to be dealt with haphazardly. I ask the house this question: Are we to listen to General Crerar, with his great experience? Are we to formulate a plan now by which we can honour our obligations?

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LIB

George Alexander Cruickshank

Liberal

Mr. CRUICKSHANK:

What about Drew?

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PC

Wilfrid Garfield Case

Progressive Conservative

Mr. CASE:

You have heard quite a bit about him in the last few days, and you probably have not yet heard the last. I can say this. One reason why your leader would not table that letter was that he does not want to give it official recognition. But the Canadian people will judge by the record.

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LIB

George Alexander Cruickshank

Liberal

Mr. CRUICKSHANK:

You people gave the letter to the newspapers.

The Address-Mr. Case

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March 2, 1948