March 27, 1947

LIB

James Lorimer Ilsley (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. ILSLEY:

No, they do not.

Topic:   EMERGENCY POWERS
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF CERTAIN ORDERS AND REGULATIONS
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PC

John Thomas Hackett

Progressive Conservative

Mr. HACKETT:

I am going to ask a specific question which may convey what I am trying to get at. Can the minister give in round figures what the production subsidies amount to? I know that they obtain in a number of departments. He has made reference to those which refer in a particular way to items under the Department of Agriculture.

Topic:   EMERGENCY POWERS
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF CERTAIN ORDERS AND REGULATIONS
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LIB

James Lorimer Ilsley (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. ILSLEY:

The agricultural production subsidies are the only ones I can remember. Replying to the specific request that I give the information in round figures, the figure I have in mind is in the neighbourhood of $100 million over two or three years.

Topic:   EMERGENCY POWERS
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF CERTAIN ORDERS AND REGULATIONS
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PC

John Thomas Hackett

Progressive Conservative

Mr. HACKETT:

Per annum?

Topic:   EMERGENCY POWERS
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF CERTAIN ORDERS AND REGULATIONS
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LIB

James Lorimer Ilsley (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. ILSLEY:

Per annum, but the amount varied ever-y year and it is much below that for the forthcoming year.

Topic:   EMERGENCY POWERS
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF CERTAIN ORDERS AND REGULATIONS
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PC

Percy Chapman Black

Progressive Conservative

Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):

I would like to get information from the minister with respect to the subsidies provided for the production, distribution and control of prices of coal. Where does the authority obtain to expend the coal subsidies, which amounted to about $8,000,000 a year-$7,720,015-and to $28,000,000 for the entire period? I have looked through the omnibus bill for an order in council extending the authority for those expenditures. I think it is agreed that these subsidies must be continued for the time being on the production of coal; I do not think anyone disputes that. Disappointment prevails in many quarters because these subsidies have not been increased to enable the wages to be paid which have been asked for by the workmen in eastern Canada so that coal production would continue. Personally I wish the payment of subsidies could be avoided, but it is recognized that they cannot be avoided. What I want to know is under what authority they have been paid, and under what authority they will continue to be paid.

In the report of the Carroll commission on coal the commissioners unanimously agreed that the payment of these subsidies must be continued. A clear statement should be made with respect to that, so that the workmen and the operators in these coal fields may have the assurance that provision is being made for the continuance of the subsidies. I would ask the

minister to tell the committee under what authority the subsidies have been paid and under what authority they will continue to be paid.

Topic:   EMERGENCY POWERS
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF CERTAIN ORDERS AND REGULATIONS
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LIB

James Lorimer Ilsley (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. ILSLEY:

I shall have to get that information from the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply, under whom these subsidies have been administered.

Topic:   EMERGENCY POWERS
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF CERTAIN ORDERS AND REGULATIONS
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PC

Percy Chapman Black

Progressive Conservative

Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):

They amount to a very large sum. Either they are being paid under the omnibus bill or they are not. Can the minister answer this question: Are these subsidies provided for under the legislation now before the committee?

Topic:   EMERGENCY POWERS
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF CERTAIN ORDERS AND REGULATIONS
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LIB

James Lorimer Ilsley (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. ILSLEY:

I do not think so, but I had better get the information from the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply. My impression is that certain subventions are paid.

Topic:   EMERGENCY POWERS
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF CERTAIN ORDERS AND REGULATIONS
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PC

Percy Chapman Black

Progressive Conservative

Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):

They are statutory and appear in the estimates.

Topic:   EMERGENCY POWERS
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF CERTAIN ORDERS AND REGULATIONS
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LIB

James Lorimer Ilsley (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. ILSLEY:

Yes, in the estimates. The production subsidies are paid by the Commodity Prices Stabilization Corporation and appear under that vote.

Topic:   EMERGENCY POWERS
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF CERTAIN ORDERS AND REGULATIONS
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PC

Percy Chapman Black

Progressive Conservative

Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):

That was under the War Measures Act originally.

Topic:   EMERGENCY POWERS
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF CERTAIN ORDERS AND REGULATIONS
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LIB

James Lorimer Ilsley (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. ILSLEY:

It is a crown corporation which works with and under the wartime prices and trade 'board, and my impression is that the production subsidies so-called- are paid by that corporation. In the estimates there is a vote to the corporation of $35,000,000. Whether it includes the production subsidies on coal I cannot say. I would have to get information on that from the minister.

Topic:   EMERGENCY POWERS
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF CERTAIN ORDERS AND REGULATIONS
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CCF

Clarence Gillis

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. GILLIS:

Mr. Chairman, I should like to arrive at some understanding as to this debate. Most of us have been sitting here silent during the whole time this resolution has been under discussion, trying to make up our minds whether to speak on the resolution or to wait until the bill is before us for second reading. This afternoon a long discussion is -being carried on with respect to most of the items covered by the resolution. If it is your intention, Mr. Chairman, to permit d-ebate at the resolution stage on the subject matter of these orders in council I think we ought to know7 it so that we may have the opportunity of speaking. Or is it the intention of the house and the ruling of the Chair that this legislation should first be put into bill form, and that a regular debate may then take place upon it? I should like to have an understanding on that. I have a good deal to say on the orders in council, but I had intended to reserve my remarks until the second reading of the bill.

Emergency Powers

Topic:   EMERGENCY POWERS
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF CERTAIN ORDERS AND REGULATIONS
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PC

John Thomas Hackett

Progressive Conservative

Mr. HACKETT:

Mr. Chairman, I should like to say a word on that. I am reserving what I have to say until the second reading. But this is a matter of some importance and I hope that the gentlemen to the left will not be too impatient with us. We have sat here many a long day when they were talking about things that interested them-and I am not at all questioning their right to information. But this is a very important enactment, and the attitude taken with respect to it will depend to a considerable extent upon the information that is made available. The minister is peculiarly- fitted to give the information because of his long experience in another office. He has shown no disinclination to answer serious questions which come from people who are trying to get information so that the debate may be carried on on the facts and not on supposition. Until you, sir, detect some indication of frivolity or an attempt to waste time, I shall ask you to permit questions addressed to the minister to be answered. This is not a debate; we are seeking information on which our attitude on second reading will be based.

Topic:   EMERGENCY POWERS
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF CERTAIN ORDERS AND REGULATIONS
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CCF

Clarence Gillis

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. GILLIS:

This is not a matter of

great importance, because the information which hon. gentlemen are seeking has been in their hands for many weeks.

Topic:   EMERGENCY POWERS
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF CERTAIN ORDERS AND REGULATIONS
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PC

John Thomas Hackett

Progressive Conservative

Mr. HACKETT:

Will the hon. gentleman

kindly tell the committee, for the benefit of those who are as ill-informed as the minister himself, just what are the totals of the subsidies, the totals of the bonuses, the totals of the remissions, and answer the questions which I have asked the minister, in connection with which he has been good enough to say that the information has not been assembled and that he will do his utmost to get for us? If the hon. gentleman who is objecting can supply this information to the committee with the accuracy that characterizes the information he vouches for here, we shall be grateful, and will wait for what the minister will give us later.

Topic:   EMERGENCY POWERS
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF CERTAIN ORDERS AND REGULATIONS
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CCF

Clarence Gillis

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. GILLIS:

I said the information had

been in the hands of hon. gentlemen for several weeks. They have only to read the last report of the wartime prices and trade board to get it.

Topic:   EMERGENCY POWERS
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF CERTAIN ORDERS AND REGULATIONS
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PC

Charles Cecil Ingersoll Merritt

Progressive Conservative

Mr. MERRITT:

We have read it,

Topic:   EMERGENCY POWERS
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF CERTAIN ORDERS AND REGULATIONS
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CCF

Clarence Gillis

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. GILLIS:

The hon. gentlemen will get in that report the information they are seeking.

Topic:   EMERGENCY POWERS
Subtopic:   CONTINUATION OF CERTAIN ORDERS AND REGULATIONS
Permalink

March 27, 1947