August 9, 1946

PC

James MacKerras Macdonnell

Progressive Conservative

Mr. MACDONNELL (Muskoka-Ontario):

Capital, yes. The question was asked, suppose a man in Manitoba sells his farm for $15,000, and wants to go across the line to live and take the money with him; unless he can establish that he has, let us say, arthritis and cannot live in Manitoba, or that his wife's mother is ill or needs the family's presence in Dakota, or give some other reason which will satisfy the members of the foreign exchange control board, he cannot take his money with him. Now I suggested-I do not know whether it is a good proposal; there may be a better-as a kind of token or pittance of freedom,-could not the board fix an amount-I made it very elastic-say of ten or fifteen thousand dollars, which a man can take as of right; and I said, if they find that is too much, let them lower it later on. The figures we were given from past experience as to the amounts likely to be taken in that way were trivial, something like a million dollars or less, so there is no indication that the amount would be large. The minister kindly said that he would take it into consideration-, and I was hopeful for the moment that this tiny scintilla of freedom would be left. But when we came to the end of the road the minister said, "it cannot be done."

I cannot remember the minister's exact words, but what he said in effect was that the government had to retain liberty of action; the government had to decide that. At any rate this is my interpretation, and this is what I mean by saying that when you get in the hands of experts you cannot blur the picture in any way; you cannot change the pattern, it is whole hog or none. They cannot afford to give that tiny relaxation because they would be admitting a wedge; they would enable >us to come back next year and say, "Give us a little more; we got back a little bit of freedom last year, give us a little more this year", and that would not be good. So, having spoken so much longer than the minister approves,-

Topic:   FOREIGN EXCHANGE CONTROL
Subtopic:   STATUTORY AUTHORITY FOR ORDERS IN COUNCIL PASSED UNDER WAR MEASURES ACT
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LIB

Douglas Charles Abbott (Minister of National Defence; Minister of National Defence for Naval Services)

Liberal

Mr. ABBOTT:

Not at all.

Topic:   FOREIGN EXCHANGE CONTROL
Subtopic:   STATUTORY AUTHORITY FOR ORDERS IN COUNCIL PASSED UNDER WAR MEASURES ACT
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PC

James MacKerras Macdonnell

Progressive Conservative

Mr. MACDONNELL (Muskoka-Ontario):

-although he is very generous in these matters, before I take my seat I want to reiterate that no one who does not want socialism should vote for this bill as it is now. I have some highly valued and respected friends who are socialists, and if they want to vote for this bill they are fully entitled to do so; but you cannot eat your cake and have it, and I say that no one who wants the return of freedom, no one who believes that we should try as soon as we can to let in such freedom as we can get-God knows it is little enough in this distracted world-nobody who does not make socialism his objective, who does not wish to travel along that path, should vote for this bill as it stands now.

I had an amendment here, but I am not quite sure whether this is the proper place to move it. May I read it, Mr. Chairman, and have you tell me whether I should move it at this time? I move, seconded by the hon. member for Kamloops:

That section 1 of the bill be amended by adding the following as 1(a):

"This act shall continue in force for not more than one year from the date of proclamation."

Topic:   FOREIGN EXCHANGE CONTROL
Subtopic:   STATUTORY AUTHORITY FOR ORDERS IN COUNCIL PASSED UNDER WAR MEASURES ACT
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LIB

Douglas Charles Abbott (Minister of National Defence; Minister of National Defence for Naval Services)

Liberal

Mr. ABBOTT:

I should think on that point that if such an amendment were moved it should come at the end of the bill. That is the usual place for a duration clause.

Topic:   FOREIGN EXCHANGE CONTROL
Subtopic:   STATUTORY AUTHORITY FOR ORDERS IN COUNCIL PASSED UNDER WAR MEASURES ACT
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PC

James MacKerras Macdonnell

Progressive Conservative

Mr. MACDONNELL (Muskoka-Ontario):

Is that the chairman's view?

Topic:   FOREIGN EXCHANGE CONTROL
Subtopic:   STATUTORY AUTHORITY FOR ORDERS IN COUNCIL PASSED UNDER WAR MEASURES ACT
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LIB

William Ross Macdonald (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

The CHAIRMAN:

I would think that the proper place would be in connection with section 74, which provides that this act shall come into force on a date to be fixed by proclamation. I suggest that the hon. member for Muskoka-Ontario might move this amendment on that section.

Foreign Exchange Control

Topic:   FOREIGN EXCHANGE CONTROL
Subtopic:   STATUTORY AUTHORITY FOR ORDERS IN COUNCIL PASSED UNDER WAR MEASURES ACT
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PC

Edmund Davie Fulton

Progressive Conservative

Mr. FULTON:

May I point out that the effect of the amendment, if it were adopted, would be in a sense to remove many of the objections which will be raised to the subsequent clauses of the bill as we come to them, and it might be advantageous to know now whether or not it will be accepted.

Topic:   FOREIGN EXCHANGE CONTROL
Subtopic:   STATUTORY AUTHORITY FOR ORDERS IN COUNCIL PASSED UNDER WAR MEASURES ACT
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LIB

Ian Alistair Mackenzie (Minister of Veterans Affairs; Leader of the Government in the House of Commons; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE:

That is out of order. The amendment deals with the question of the duration of the act, and obviously it cannot be considered until we reach clause 74.

Topic:   FOREIGN EXCHANGE CONTROL
Subtopic:   STATUTORY AUTHORITY FOR ORDERS IN COUNCIL PASSED UNDER WAR MEASURES ACT
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LIB

William Ross Macdonald (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

The CHAIRMAN:

With reference to the remarks of the hon. member for Kamloops (Mr. Fulton), the considerations he has mentioned have no bearing upon procedure. I am asked by the member for Muskoka-Ontario a question with regard to procedure, and it is my opinion that the amendment should be withheld for the time being and moved when we come to section 74. Is that agreeable to the hon. member for Muskoka-Ontario?

Topic:   FOREIGN EXCHANGE CONTROL
Subtopic:   STATUTORY AUTHORITY FOR ORDERS IN COUNCIL PASSED UNDER WAR MEASURES ACT
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PC

James MacKerras Macdonnell

Progressive Conservative

Mr. MACDONNELL (Muskoka-Ontario):

I bow to your ruling, Mr. Chairman.

Topic:   FOREIGN EXCHANGE CONTROL
Subtopic:   STATUTORY AUTHORITY FOR ORDERS IN COUNCIL PASSED UNDER WAR MEASURES ACT
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PC

George Russell Boucher

Progressive Conservative

Mr. BOUCHER:

I suggest that we might save time if we were to allow the preceding sections to stand and have that section called now and the suggestion disposed of.

Topic:   FOREIGN EXCHANGE CONTROL
Subtopic:   STATUTORY AUTHORITY FOR ORDERS IN COUNCIL PASSED UNDER WAR MEASURES ACT
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LIB

Ian Alistair Mackenzie (Minister of Veterans Affairs; Leader of the Government in the House of Commons; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE:

Certainly not. We will go ahead with the bill section by section in the usual way, according to the custom of parliament.

Topic:   FOREIGN EXCHANGE CONTROL
Subtopic:   STATUTORY AUTHORITY FOR ORDERS IN COUNCIL PASSED UNDER WAR MEASURES ACT
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LIB

William Ross Macdonald (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

The CHAIRMAN:

I take it that the hon. member for Muskoka-Ontario has the leave of the committee to withdraw the amendment.

Topic:   FOREIGN EXCHANGE CONTROL
Subtopic:   STATUTORY AUTHORITY FOR ORDERS IN COUNCIL PASSED UNDER WAR MEASURES ACT
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LIB

Ian Alistair Mackenzie (Minister of Veterans Affairs; Leader of the Government in the House of Commons; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE:

No. Let it stand for the time being.

Topic:   FOREIGN EXCHANGE CONTROL
Subtopic:   STATUTORY AUTHORITY FOR ORDERS IN COUNCIL PASSED UNDER WAR MEASURES ACT
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LIB

William Ross Macdonald (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

The CHAIRMAN:

I simply wish to be sure that the amendment stands for the time being and is not under consideration as an amendment to clause 1.

Topic:   FOREIGN EXCHANGE CONTROL
Subtopic:   STATUTORY AUTHORITY FOR ORDERS IN COUNCIL PASSED UNDER WAR MEASURES ACT
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LIB

Ian Alistair Mackenzie (Minister of Veterans Affairs; Leader of the Government in the House of Commons; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE:

That is right.

Topic:   FOREIGN EXCHANGE CONTROL
Subtopic:   STATUTORY AUTHORITY FOR ORDERS IN COUNCIL PASSED UNDER WAR MEASURES ACT
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LIB

Douglas Charles Abbott (Minister of National Defence; Minister of National Defence for Naval Services)

Liberal

Mr. ABBOTT:

I might reply briefly to one or two comments made by the hon. member for Muskoka-Ontario. In the first place, the principle of the bill with reference to exchange control was approved when second reading was voted two or three weeks ago. Now there are only three ways of handling international exchanges. One is-

Topic:   FOREIGN EXCHANGE CONTROL
Subtopic:   STATUTORY AUTHORITY FOR ORDERS IN COUNCIL PASSED UNDER WAR MEASURES ACT
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PC

John Thomas Hackett

Progressive Conservative

Mr. HACKETT:

Will the minister permit a question?

Topic:   FOREIGN EXCHANGE CONTROL
Subtopic:   STATUTORY AUTHORITY FOR ORDERS IN COUNCIL PASSED UNDER WAR MEASURES ACT
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LIB

Douglas Charles Abbott (Minister of National Defence; Minister of National Defence for Naval Services)

Liberal

Mr. ABBOTT:

I would rather finish the statement I am about to make. However, if the hon. member wishes to put his question I will try to answer it.

Topic:   FOREIGN EXCHANGE CONTROL
Subtopic:   STATUTORY AUTHORITY FOR ORDERS IN COUNCIL PASSED UNDER WAR MEASURES ACT
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PC

John Thomas Hackett

Progressive Conservative

Mr. HACKETT:

I merely wanted to ask the minister whether it is fair to say that the principle of the bill was accepted. I think he will find it was stated that the bill should be referred to committee and that the house would then be in a better position to consider the actual method proposed.

Topic:   FOREIGN EXCHANGE CONTROL
Subtopic:   STATUTORY AUTHORITY FOR ORDERS IN COUNCIL PASSED UNDER WAR MEASURES ACT
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August 9, 1946