May 2, 1946

LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin (Secretary of State of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. MARTIN:

Yes. I want to take the

committee into my confidence. When we came to deal with that paragraph it gave us a great deal of trouble. The hon. gentleman knows me well enough to know that I would not want to have any measure in the bill which could be unscrupulously used by an individual to deport an alleged undesirable person.

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PC

John Thomas Hackett

Progressive Conservative

Mr. HACKETT:

Is that the language of the subparagraph taken from the criminal code?

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LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin (Secretary of State of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. MARTIN:

Yes. I do not wish to refer to existing cases, but there are many instances. I forget the exact number we had before the war, but there were Canadian citizens who went to Germany between 1934 and 1936, many of whom took part in. the activities of the German army. Others, if they did not take part, did other things which were obviously disloyal, and certainly could come within, the characterization of being by act or speech disloyal to the crown. We must have some provision to deal with these people. These people acquired naturalization. They were not natural-bom people. They came into this country and we took them for people who would give their loyalty to Canada. They did not. They being naturalized persons, we felt

that we should have the right to deal with such people' in this way. I am not denying that with people who have no responsibility this sort of thing could be open to abuse; but we have to trust whoever holds the office of Secretary of State, whoever serves in the government of this country, that they will not act lightly in a matter like this. That is the only effective reply I can give to the hon. gentleman, but it is a powerful reply. I do not think there has been any abuse of it, and I see no occasion to suspect that there will be.

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CCF

Alistair McLeod Stewart

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. STEWART (Winnipeg North):

I am quite willing to accept the Secretary of State's word that he would not abuse it. I believe that implicitly, but there may be other secretaries of state following him. To some extent it has been abused in the past. I remember the history of the 1919 strike when undoubtedly men who afterwards achieved eminence of position in legislatures were arrested and virtually charged with treason and sedition. The founder of this political party, of which I am a member was arrested and incarcerated for four days, I think, because he quoted Isaiah in the streets of Winnipeg. We are not always going to get men in the position of the Secretary of State who are liberals in the best sense of the word. To my mind this section gives undue power to a minister, and I do not like to see that no matter how good the minister may be. I should like to move in amendment that what is now section 21 (1) (d) be stricken out.

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LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin (Secretary of State of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. MARTIN:

That is paragraph (e) as it appears in the bill?

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CCF
LIB

Roch Pinard

Liberal

Mr. PINARD:

I should like to add a few words to what was said by a previous speaker. I think paragraph (e), which was just referred to, is a very general provision. It says that a person will cease to be a Canadian citizen and will lose his citizenship if he shows himself to be disaffected or disloyal to His Majesty. On that point I think this paragraph should be clarified and explained, because "disloyalty" has been defined in the criminal code. I think sections 74 to 87 describe the treasonable offences, but I believe here we should better explain what we believe would be disloyalty to His Majesty. For instance, I do not think it should be considered disloyal to His Majesty if one did not approve a measure which was ratified by the king on the advice of his South African or Australian ministers or, as another example, that a man would be disloyal if he did not approve the policy followed by His Majesty

Canadian Citizenship

in India. For these reasons I think this section should be clarified, and that after the words "His Majesty", we should add the words "as king of Canada". Otherwise there would be a great deal of confusion, and some injustice might be done. So that we might add after the words "His Majesty" the words "in the right of Canada".

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CCF

Alistair McLeod Stewart

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. STEWART (Winnipeg North):

May I amend my own amendment?

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LIB

Ian Alistair Mackenzie (Minister of Veterans Affairs; Leader of the Government in the House of Commons; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE:

By unanimous consent.

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LIB

William Henry Golding

Liberal

The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. Golding):

If the hon. member wishes to do so he may withdraw his amendment by unanimous consent.

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CCF

Alistair McLeod Stewart

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. STEWART (Winnipeg North):

Then, if I may have consent to withdraw it I should like to substitute the following for the present paragraph:

has been convicted of treason or sedition by a court of competent jurisdiction under the law of Canada.

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LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin (Secretary of State of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. MARTIN:

That would not cover the cases I have mentioned, of people who have not committed treason. We have suspicions, or perhaps more than suspicions, but they have not committed treason. They have done things that come close to treason, but under the law they are not characterized as such. That is so, for example, in connection with some of those people who went to Germany. The words, "by act or speech to be disaffected or disloyal to His Majesty" have been in the present act since 1914. They are in all the corresponding acts throughout the commonwealth. They were in the Naturalization Act prior to 1914. They have caused no difficulty, and regretfully I must say that I cannot accept the amendment.

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LIB

George Alexander Cruickshank

Liberal

Mr. CRUICKSHANK:

If I may ask a question, did I understand the minister to say that the Secretary of State would have the power, to be used in his discretion?

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LIB
LIB

George Alexander Cruickshank

Liberal

Mr. CRUICKSHANK:

What I am afraid of is that if we should be so unfortunate as to have the C.C.F. party get into power, they might be able to cancel my citizenship.

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CCF

Alistair McLeod Stewart

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. STEWART (Winnipeg North):

We shall preserve you.

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PC

John George Diefenbaker

Progressive Conservative

Mr. DIEFENBAKER:

At this hour I am not going to get into another controversy regarding orders in council. I think we shall have an interesting debate on that, from the warning given by the hon. member for Vancouver East. But there is a question which should be settled by an opinion from the law officers

of the crown. It deals generally with the question of orders in council. Earlier this evening it was stated than an order in council passed prior to this bill becoming law, of an import contrary to the statute itself, would be effectual as against this statute when it becomes law.

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LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin (Secretary of State of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. MARTIN:

I will see that what my hon. friend suggests is done; but if my hon. friend does not mind my saying so, I do not think that comes under this section. However, I shall note the point. I am rather anxious to have this section passed, if I can; and since I did something which provoked the observation that I would be receiving excessive cooperation, perhaps I might ask for that consideration.

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PC

John George Diefenbaker

Progressive Conservative

Mr. DIEFENBAKER:

I do not want to go into the question at the moment, because I do not think this particular section will pass this evening, but this is just another of these sections which will result in the setting up of more of these inquiries and commissions, to which we have been raising strong objection in recent days. I thought I would join a discussion of this section with a request to the minister that he secure an opinion from the law officers of the crown supporting the view expressed this evening by himself and by the Minister of Veterans Affairs-

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LIB

May 2, 1946