November 14, 1945

LIB
PC

Donald Methuen Fleming

Progressive Conservative

Mr. FLEMING:

We have here a situation where after the termination of hostilities the government by order in council under power it claims by virtue of the War Measures Act

Motions for Papers

has set up a body to supersede the previous body, the wartime information board. Parliament knows nothing about this matter except the very brief announcement made in the house by the Minister of Finance on October 2 when he tabled order in council P.C. 6300. We know nothing more than that. I wish to submit to the house that parliament at no time has been consulted in regard to the establishment of the Canadian information service! The Canadian information service has no relation to the prosecution of tihe war. The government purports to establish it for this purpose:

The service shall provide means and facilities for distributing abroad information concerning Canada and for coordinating and assisting the public information services of the government.

That is obviously-

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LIB

Brooke Claxton (Minister of National Health and Welfare)

Liberal

Mr. CLAXTON:

With some regret I must rise to a point of order. My hon. friend's argument may be very strong, but it is directed toward the existence or non-existence or the creation of the Canadian information service. It is not in support of his motion at all, and is quite irrelevant.

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PC

Donald Methuen Fleming

Progressive Conservative

Mr. FLEMING:

My remarks are relevant to the statement made by the minister.

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?

Some hon. MEMBERS:

Order.

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PC

Donald Methuen Fleming

Progressive Conservative

Mr. FLEMING:

I want to give my reasons.

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LIB

James Horace King (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER:

Order. I must call the attention of hon. members to the fact that notices of motion for the production of papers are not debatable. Of course it is the privilege of the mover of the motion to give an explanation, as it is his privilege to answer the remarks made by the minister; but in his discussion he should keep within the scope of the remarks made by the minister. He has not the right to bring in new argument.

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CCF

Major James William Coldwell

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. COLDWELL:

On a point of order-

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IND

Jean-François Pouliot

Independent Liberal

Mr. POULIOT:

It is secret service, not information.

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CCF

Major James William Coldwell

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. COLDWELL:

What is the interpretation of the words "not debatable"? When the hon. member for Cape Breton South (Mr. Gillis) attempted a few moments ago to say something in reply to the minister he was stopped; but here we have listened to a long speech by the minister and1 by the hon. member. I should like to know just what is the ruling, because if one member is to be . allowed

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?

Some hon. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear.

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CCF

Major James William Coldwell

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. COLDWELL:

-to speak at length, another hon. member must also be allowed to speak at length. -

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Some hon. MEMBERS:

Hear, hear.

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PC

Donald Methuen Fleming

Progressive Conservative

Mr. FLEMING:

I am speaking to the point of order.

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Some hon. MEMBERS:

Order; sit down.

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LIB

James Horace King (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER:

Order. In answer to the hon. member, the leader of the C.C.F. party (Mr. Coldwell), may I say that it is the privilege of the hon. member who moved the motion to answer the remarks made by the hon. member who opposed the motion; but, according to the rules, he is not allowed to bring in new arguments. His remarks must be related to the argument made by the minister against his motion.

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PC

Donald Methuen Fleming

Progressive Conservative

Mr. FLEMING:

That is what I wish to do, Mr. Speaker. My next point in reply to the minister is that parliament has the right and the duty to know what the Canadian information service is doing and is planning to do, and the minutes of the supervising committee contain that essential information. Therefore they must be available to parliament if parliament is to be in a position to do its duty.

In conclusion, may I say that as I interpret the remarks of the minister, the basis of the government's refusal of this essential information to parliament is adherence to the antiquated theory of the relation of this parliament to the government expounded by the Acting Prime Minister two days ago-

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Some hon. MEMBERS:

Order.

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LIB

James Lorimer Ilsley (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Liberal

Mr. ILSLEY:

Mr. Speaker, I want to raise a point of order. Surelv this has gone beyond all reason. What is a debate on a motion? Standing order 51 is as follows:

Notices of motion for the production of papers which the member asking for the same intends to move without discussion, shall be marked by him with an asterisk and shall be placed by the Clerk on the order paper above "Notices of Motion", under the heading "Notices of Motion for the Production of Papers". All such notices when called shall be forthwith disposed of; but it on any such motion a debate is desired-

And surely this is a debate. I have been drawn into it bv the last few words of the hon. member.

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PC

Karl Kenneth Homuth

Progressive Conservative

Mr. HOMUTH:

Who started it?

Some lion. MEMBERS: Quack, quack!

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November 14, 1945