November 12, 1945

CCF

William Irvine

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. IRVINE:

Not at all.

Topic:   WAR CHARITIES ACT
Subtopic:   INCLUSION OF IVAR MEMORIALS AS PROJECTS ACCEPTABLE FOR REGISTRATION
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SC

Ernest George Hansell

Social Credit

Mr. HANSELL:

That is the point. I do not think we should embark upon a wrong philosophy. Just because we spend money on war memorials, to my mind should not mean we shall have any less money to spend on the security of the people.

While I am on my feet I should like to make one or two observations and then come back to my question. If we are to have war TMr. Irvine.]

memorials I believe we should have the best. I have noticed some agitation on the part of artists, or should I say artisans, to confine the work in connection with these memorials to Canadian artists. I am not entirely in sjmn-pathy with that view. I believe we should use all the Canadian talent we have, and I think we possess a great deal of it in Canada. I believe also we have a good deal of potential talent that many of our young sons and daughters have not yet had a chance to bring out. But all the artistry that is required may not be found within our own borders; and if in order to have the best we must obtain the advice of outstanding world artists and sculps tors, then I say nothing is too good for a war memorial. On a number of occasions I have been in our own memorial chamber in the peace tower with visitors. I have not travelled around the world, but I have been in most of the large cities of the United States. I did take a smattering of art in my younger days, and while I do not claim to have a superabundance of appreciation for art, I will say that I do not believe I have seen anywhere any greater portrayal of art and thought than has been shown by those who designed the memorial chamber in this building. That chamber is really a work of art, and the amount of thought that is behind it is tremendous. I find something new every time I go there. Nothing seems to have been forgotten. I do not know how many hon. members are aware that outside the entrance to the chamber there are even sculptured! in stone the forms of mice, rats and pigeons. I do not know how often these are brought to the attention of the public, but if you ask the reason for them you will find that these were used for war purposes. I certainly appreciate the thought that has been put into that memorial chamber. Around the altar where the Book of Remembrance is kept we have perhaps one of the finest inscriptions ever to come from the pen of man, apart from sacred scripture:

My marks and scars I carry with me, to be a wit ness for me that I have fought His battles who will now be my re warder. So he passed over and all the trumpets sounded for him on the other side.

Topic:   WAR CHARITIES ACT
Subtopic:   INCLUSION OF IVAR MEMORIALS AS PROJECTS ACCEPTABLE FOR REGISTRATION
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PC

Gordon Graydon

Progressive Conservative

Mr. GRAYDON:

That is not scripture.

Topic:   WAR CHARITIES ACT
Subtopic:   INCLUSION OF IVAR MEMORIALS AS PROJECTS ACCEPTABLE FOR REGISTRATION
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SC

Ernest George Hansell

Social Credit

Mr. HANSELL:

I know. I said to my mind it was one of the greatest expressions apart from scripture. It comes from Bunyan's "Pilgrim's Progress". I am only stating that I find a tremendous amount of thought has been put into that war memorial. The reason I asked about maintenance is this. I do not believe there is any particular ceremony at eleven o'clock each day when one page of

War Charities Act

that memorial book is turned over. I know this borders on the emotional and sentimental side a bit, but I have often thought that these things go to make up life. I know that two of the constables are delegated each day to turn over that one page. I thought this: Would it not be appropriate if some mother, chosen from some point in. Canada, could be given the task of turning over that page, perhaps bowing for a few moments of silent prayer while doing so. This could be a mother who had given her sons, or perhaps a husband, in world war I. I believe this would add dignity to the ceremony. Of course such a task would have to be paid for, and I am wondering if this measure would cover anything of that kind.

War memorials are for the remembrance of those who have died in battle. It is all very well for us to talk about what we have to do for the living; but the dead must be honoured.

Topic:   WAR CHARITIES ACT
Subtopic:   INCLUSION OF IVAR MEMORIALS AS PROJECTS ACCEPTABLE FOR REGISTRATION
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LIB

James Joseph McCann (Minister of National Revenue; Minister of National War Services)

Liberal

Mr. McCANN:

If the hon. member will read the definition section he will see that by regulation certain things may be classed as war memorials. There will be no attempt on the part of those who are administering the War Charities Act to have any standardization of memorials. As a matter of fact, if it were under my administration I would welcome Originality in memorials.

The hon. member has drawn attention to maintenance. Might I point out that a war memorial might be a ward in a hospital which would be maintained throughout the years by an organization as a memorial to those who had given their lives in a war. As I say, I think there will be broad interpretation of originality in design. I have no doubt that the definition of the term "war memorial" will be sufficiently broad to meet the wishes of almost any person or any group of persons interested in having a memorial in a community in honour of those who have given their lives during a war.

Topic:   WAR CHARITIES ACT
Subtopic:   INCLUSION OF IVAR MEMORIALS AS PROJECTS ACCEPTABLE FOR REGISTRATION
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PC

Agar Rodney Adamson

Progressive Conservative

Mr. ADAMSON:

Perhaps the hon. member for Maeleod may not know-probably he does-that a great deal of the symbolism of this building was placed there by a Canadian who possibly is not so well known to the present generation. I refer to the very well known and greatly honoured gentleman who at one time was crown attorney of this county. I refer to "Dick" Ritchie, a man who had a great deal to do with the symbolism found in our peace tower. He was a man, essentially a Canadian, and one who was even more a citizen of Canada than a citizen of Ottawa. I do not know that any appreciation has been given to him, or made

on his behalf-he died some years ago-for the work he did in connection with the symbolism in these parliament buildings.

The architect of these buildings was John Pearson, another gentleman who, again, was peculiarly a Canadian. He came from Toronto, rather than Otthwa, and was recognized both on this continent and in Europe as one of the great architects of his time.

The last time this bill was debated I noticed that some reference was made to the plan to make Ottawa a national war memorial or a national shrine, and to the proposal to bring Mr. Greber to this city to carry out that plan. I take exception to this. It is not that I object to Mr. Greber, or to the fact that he is not a Canadian, but rather that I do not think the development of our national capital should be in the hands of any but a group of Canadians. I would be content to have opinions from abroad. Possibly the good Mr. Greber has done such work in the capital that he should be consulted. But to leave the whole thing in his hands is, to my mind, first of all a negation of Canadian citizenship and, second, something that amounts almost to a slap in the face of our Canadian architects and artists.

I feel that when this comes up for actual wprk a committee of Canadians should be appointed to assist Mr. Greber in the work of making this a great capital city. In this I am following two opinions, one of which is from the Royal Architectural Institute of Canada which, in an editorial in their Journal states:

The highlight in the architectural news, this month, is a further indication of the government's or the Prime Minister's unwillingness to recognize Canadian professional ability. The Prime Minister has asked General de Gaulle, as a favour, to allow Mr. Greber to come to Ottawa for a further scheme of beautification. If town planning were involved for the complete reconstruction of Ottawa, we would be the first to approve the appointment, through competition or other means, of the best men available, from whatever country. He might be Mr. Patrick Abercrombie, Mr. Bar.tholemew or he might be a Canadian. It is unlikely that he would be Mr. Greber. That, of course, is the job that should be done for a capital city that is occupying an increasingly important position in world affairs. Actually the job proposed is a napoleonic one of window dressing in which buildings will be knocked down and squares formed, gardens will be laid out and trees planted. The poor will remain where they are, or wil. be squeezed more tightly, and the overall planning of the city will be made more difficult for the town planners who must inevitably be appointed in the present decade.

If that is the programme, there is no need to ask favours of General de Gaulle. We have no very high opinion of what has already been done in Ottawa. We speak, of course, as a Torontonian, but one who has seen Times square,

War Charities Act

the Brandenburg gate and the Etoile, and we know of no place that is such a hazard to life and limb, whether on foot or in a vehicle, than Confederation square in Ottawa. There are Canadians who would have done a better job, and there are Canadians who could handle practically and with greater dignity the programme that is, at present, contemplated.

This is a fair and a professional opinion from the Royal Architectural Institute of Canada, which points out some of the grave difficulties which will be in our way if we leave this planning in the hands of Mr. Greber alone.

I have one further opinion, that, of the head of the School of Seven. Perhaps it can be said that we in Canada have developed painting as an art. possibly to a higher degree than any other. Our painters have become world renowned. There are Canadian painters who are known and whose paintings have been hung in most European galleries. A particu-ularly interesting group, known as the group of seven, brought about a new concept of art, particularly Canadian art. I should like to read a short paragraph or two from Mr. Harris' letter. He says:

A master plan for this country's capital using the Canadian people's money is strictly a Canadian venture and demands the use of Canadian talent and competence. Not to use the talent of Canada, trained and highly efficient in tfe type of planning best suited to Canada, is a betrayal of its creative spirit.

Does the Prime Minister realize that he is denying his own people the use of their best creative minds ip planning what may be this country's most important national project? Does he realize that in so doing he is starving a need of the Canadian people as basic to pride and well-being on the creative level as food is on the physical level? Does he realize that a people establishes its symbols through its own creative life and work in the arts, translates thus its feeling for its country into clear and potent expression, clarifies its aspirations and so helps to shape its individuality? Does he realize that his own people cannot hope to rise to a decent and relf-reliant nationhood unless they create their own public works in their own terms before the world?

This Ottawa that we hope to see rise as the capital of a great Canadian nation must foe a Canadian city. It must not only be a Canadian city; it must be a city of government and be planned as such. Any city that is a city of government must be a peculiar city. It must have amenities for the machinery of government. It cannot be merely a planned town or a group of vistas; it must be able to house the various government structures and take care of the various government functions. It must be a show place to attract the people of the world. More than that, this city of ours should reflect Canada. I do not say that in any narrow provincial or nationalistic way. We

must develop this capital of ours as a Canadian city. The predominant feeling behind this city and1 this memorial must be Canadian.

Therefore, in these few words I wish to protest against the destruction of Canadian creative ability by the appointment of someone outside Canada, irrespective of the work he has done before, to plan our national memorial. I believe he should be part of the plan, but he should have a group of Canadian artists, Canadian sculptors and Canadian architects helping him in this truly national and what we hope will be a magnificent endeavour.

Topic:   WAR CHARITIES ACT
Subtopic:   INCLUSION OF IVAR MEMORIALS AS PROJECTS ACCEPTABLE FOR REGISTRATION
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PC

Gordon Knapman Fraser

Progressive Conservative

Mr. FRASER:

I am very much interested in war charities, because in Peterborough we had one man,.Fred Mann, who organized the war charities fund during the war. Through his efforts he raised about $100,000, as the department well knows, all of which was sent to the Lord Mayor of London. That man worked morning, afternoon and night without any remuneration and he did an excellent job. I do not think his praises have been sung any place outside Peterborough and I think they should be. Peterborough has raised over $300,000 for a war memorial for her men who were lost in this war. It is intended to put up a building for recreational purposes and this will be one of the finest in Canada.

The minister mentioned the income tax exemption. I do not know whether I am right but I understand the purpose of this bill is not only to protect the Canadian people against fraud but also to give the department a chance to check on these war charities for income tax purposes. If a war memorial is built and fees are charged and the building makes a profit, does the department say that those profits are to be put back into the fund again so that no individual will get a profit out of it?

Topic:   WAR CHARITIES ACT
Subtopic:   INCLUSION OF IVAR MEMORIALS AS PROJECTS ACCEPTABLE FOR REGISTRATION
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LIB

James Joseph McCann (Minister of National Revenue; Minister of National War Services)

Liberal

Mr. McCANN:

If it does not become a

commercial proposition they keep it for maintenance purposes.

Topic:   WAR CHARITIES ACT
Subtopic:   INCLUSION OF IVAR MEMORIALS AS PROJECTS ACCEPTABLE FOR REGISTRATION
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PC

Gordon Knapman Fraser

Progressive Conservative

Mr. FRASER:

It must not be used for

commercial purposes?

Topic:   WAR CHARITIES ACT
Subtopic:   INCLUSION OF IVAR MEMORIALS AS PROJECTS ACCEPTABLE FOR REGISTRATION
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LIB

James Joseph McCann (Minister of National Revenue; Minister of National War Services)

Liberal

Mr. McCANN:

No.

Topic:   WAR CHARITIES ACT
Subtopic:   INCLUSION OF IVAR MEMORIALS AS PROJECTS ACCEPTABLE FOR REGISTRATION
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PC

Clayton Earl Desmond

Progressive Conservative

Mr. DESMOND:

According to letters I

have received, the public do not seem to understand this'bill to amend the War Charities Act, 1939. There seems to be the impression that some provision is being made whereby the department will subscribe to war memorials which may be built in the different municipalities. I have not the 1939 act before me and possibly the minister can enlighten me.

Topic:   WAR CHARITIES ACT
Subtopic:   INCLUSION OF IVAR MEMORIALS AS PROJECTS ACCEPTABLE FOR REGISTRATION
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LIB

James Joseph McCann (Minister of National Revenue; Minister of National War Services)

Liberal

Mr. McCANN :

I do not just get the

question.

C.PJI.-Pension Rights for Strikers

Topic:   WAR CHARITIES ACT
Subtopic:   INCLUSION OF IVAR MEMORIALS AS PROJECTS ACCEPTABLE FOR REGISTRATION
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PC

Harry Rutherford Jackman

Progressive Conservative

Mr. JACKMAN:

Is the government to be a contributor?

Topic:   WAR CHARITIES ACT
Subtopic:   INCLUSION OF IVAR MEMORIALS AS PROJECTS ACCEPTABLE FOR REGISTRATION
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LIB

James Joseph McCann (Minister of National Revenue; Minister of National War Services)

Liberal

Mr. McCANN:

A group of citizens in a

community may - take it upon themselves to inaugurate a scheme to raise money to build some type of war memorial. The whole purpose of defining a war memorial is to give the bona fide appeal a 'better chance of receiving public support. We feel this will result if these appeals are under the same regulations that obtained with reference to war charities. The section under review has to do entirely with the definition of "war memorial."

In answer to t'h-e hon. member for York West I may say that at the present -time it is not a matter of the completion of any particular memorial. His observations with reference -to making Ottawa a national war memorial perhaps should be made when the Minister of Public Works is before the committee. The hon. member has referred to Mr. Greber, and for his information I can say that Mr. Greber intends, and has so stated, to use the services of Canadian architects in carrying out the work he has in hand. He is to act in an advisory and supervisory capacity. As he stated in the railway committee room aJbout a week ago, he intends to use -the services of Canadian architects who perhaps will be in a better position to carry out the details of his suggestions than he is himself. They will know more about the local conditions than he does.

Topic:   WAR CHARITIES ACT
Subtopic:   INCLUSION OF IVAR MEMORIALS AS PROJECTS ACCEPTABLE FOR REGISTRATION
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Section agreed to. On section 2-Regulations.


PC

John Ritchie MacNicol

Progressive Conservative

Mr. MacNICOL:

Would- the minister consider what might be a suitable type of programme at t'he ceremonies that are held around war memorials such as the cenotaph or the Cross of Sacrifice? I have seen quite a number of these ceremonies -and some have been most impressive, while others were not so much so. Yesterday I saw one that impressed me greatly. One part in particular was most impressive, and that was the sounding of the Last Post, and the firing of the salute. Four bars of "Nearer My God to Thee" were played before the rifles were fired, and another four bars between each blast of the rifles, or sixteen bars altogether before the three blasts had been fired. It was soul-stirring and inspiring, and if the minister has not given consideration to such programmes it might be worth while doing so. Many beautiful old-time hymns and sacred songs that have come down to us through the ages could be incorporated in such a programme, such as "Lead Kindly Light," "Abide With Me," "O Valiant Hearts" and others equally soul-inspiring. Has the minister considered anything along that line?

Topic:   WAR CHARITIES ACT
Subtopic:   INCLUSION OF IVAR MEMORIALS AS PROJECTS ACCEPTABLE FOR REGISTRATION
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LIB

James Joseph McCann (Minister of National Revenue; Minister of National War Services)

Liberal

Mr. McCANN:

I can give only my personal opinion. I would not be in favour of any standardization of the type of memorial service that should be held. I think that should be left entirely to the wishes of the local community. There should be the utmost autonomy in that matter. In Nova Scotia they might want a service in'Gaelic, and that would- not be understood in British Columbia. The service is a reflection of the spirit of the people in the community in which it is held, and I think it should be left to the good judgment of the people in the community so long as the main purpose is to pay some form of tribute at the memorial to the people for whom it was erected.

Topic:   WAR CHARITIES ACT
Subtopic:   INCLUSION OF IVAR MEMORIALS AS PROJECTS ACCEPTABLE FOR REGISTRATION
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Section agreed to. Bill reported, read the third time and passed.


CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY-EMPLOYEES INVOLVED IN 1919 STRIKE-REQUEST FOR ROYAL COMMISSION ON PENSION RIGHTS


Hon. IAN A. MACKENZIE (Minister of Veterans Affairs). moved that the house go into committee of supply.


November 12, 1945