November 6, 1945

PC

John George Diefenbaker

Progressive Conservative

Mr. DIEFENBAKER:

Would the minister give the list of the nations which have signed the agreement? I think it would be very helpful.

Topic:   INTERNATIONAL CIVIL AVIATION
Subtopic:   APPROVAL OF AGREEMENTS OF DECEMBER 7, 1944 AND FEBRUARY 10, 1945
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LIB

Clarence Decatur Howe (Minister of Reconstruction; Minister of Munitions and Supply)

Liberal

Mr. HOWE:

I have not the list before me, but I shall try to have it by eight o'clock.

Topic:   INTERNATIONAL CIVIL AVIATION
Subtopic:   APPROVAL OF AGREEMENTS OF DECEMBER 7, 1944 AND FEBRUARY 10, 1945
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CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. KNOWLES:

Is it any longer than the list in this document?

Topic:   INTERNATIONAL CIVIL AVIATION
Subtopic:   APPROVAL OF AGREEMENTS OF DECEMBER 7, 1944 AND FEBRUARY 10, 1945
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LIB

Clarence Decatur Howe (Minister of Reconstruction; Minister of Munitions and Supply)

Liberal

Mr. HOWE:

Does that give the fifty-two nations represented?

Topic:   INTERNATIONAL CIVIL AVIATION
Subtopic:   APPROVAL OF AGREEMENTS OF DECEMBER 7, 1944 AND FEBRUARY 10, 1945
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CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. KNOWLES:

Yes-

Topic:   INTERNATIONAL CIVIL AVIATION
Subtopic:   APPROVAL OF AGREEMENTS OF DECEMBER 7, 1944 AND FEBRUARY 10, 1945
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PC

John George Diefenbaker

Progressive Conservative

Mr. DIEFENBAKER:

Did the U.S.S.R. sign?

Topic:   INTERNATIONAL CIVIL AVIATION
Subtopic:   APPROVAL OF AGREEMENTS OF DECEMBER 7, 1944 AND FEBRUARY 10, 1945
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LIB

Clarence Decatur Howe (Minister of Reconstruction; Minister of Munitions and Supply)

Liberal

Air. HOWE:

No; the U.S.S.R. were not present in Chicago.

The Five Freedoms Agreement. The transport agreement provides for a multilateral exchange of the first five freedoms; that is, the right not only to fly over and land in the territory of other states but the right to pick up and set down traffic in those other states. Holding to the view which we expressed throughout the conference that greater freedom oif the air must be placed in a framework of principles which would prevent discrimination, unfair competition, and unequal developments, we took the view that while we could accept the first two freedoms we could not give up all the rights involved in the third, fourth and fifth freedoms until some solution had been reached on the questions of rates and allocation of services, which had not been settled at Chicago. A substantial number of other nations also took this position. We'have not signed the five freedoms agreement, which has been, however, accepted by nine governments. We hope, however, that all interested nations will accept all these freedoms when it has been possible to reach agreement upon the

International Civil Aviation

principles and practices to apply in the matter of rates and services. Our efforts in the provisional international civil aviation organization in Montreal remain devoted to this objective.

The Interim Agreement. I turn now to the interim agreement establishing the provisional international civil aviation organization, which is referred to as "PICAO" in this country. At Chicago it was recognized that some time must elapse before the permanent convention could be approved by all the member governments, and could come into effect. It was also recognized that a period of experience and experiment would be a useful preliminary to the establishment of a permanent organization. Therefore an interim agreement was prepared which, while following generally the lines of the permanent convention, went into less detail, and could be accepted more promptly by signatory governments, so that an interim organization might be created without delay to open the way for the creation of the permanent organization. -

The interim agreement has been accepted by the Canadian government, as well as by the necessary number of other states, and the provisional organization which it provided for has heen set up in Montreal, which the Chicago conference selected as its seat. It held its first meeting of an organizational nature there this summer. The real work of the organization has now begun in earnest, with the establishment of various subcommittees and agencies which have been functioning since the beginning of October.

While (he interim agreement follows generally the lines of the permanent convention, it does not contain the provision for compulsory settlement of disputes, which is included in the convention. There are a number of other less important differences which arise chiefly out of the fact that the convention is written in greater detail. Basically the framework of an assembly, a council, and air transport and air navigation committees is the same.

The first council for the provisional organization was elected at Chicago and Canada was among those given representation on the council. A seat has been kept vacant in the hope that U.S.S.R., which was not represented at Chicago, may in due course find it possible to participate in the organization. I understand that subsequently Russia has been invited to send an observer to the meetings in Montreal.

The council elects its own president, and, as you are probably aware, the highly respected and eminent Doctor Edward Warner, former member 'of the United States

civil aeronautics board, has been chosen to fill this post, with the complete approval of all participating states.

The council has also appointed Mr. Albert Roper of France, secretary general of the organization. Mr. Roper brings to his work a vast experience in the field of air navigation, since he has been the secretary of the ICAN, the international air navigation organization which existed in Paris between the two wars.

Each member state is to bear the expenses of its own representatives to the assembly, and the salary and expenses of its own delegate on the council, and of any representatives it may have on working committees. In addition, each state is to make a ~ contribution to the operating costs of the organization. It is expected that our initial annual contribution will be around $60,000. As a sanction to ensure the adequate financing of the organization, it is provided that the assembly may suspend the voting power of any member state in default financially.

Further, the provisional organization is to administer the international air services transit agreement, and the international transport agreement, to which I have already referred, pending the coming into force of the permanent convention.

The interim agreement also provides certain general conditions to be observed in the field of air navigation, pending the final working out and acceptance of the numerous annexes in this field. These conditions, which are largely in accordance with our own present accepted practices, cover such matters as flight over the territory of member states, landing regulations, designation of routes and of airports, measures to facilitate air navigation, certification of aircraft equipment and personnel, and similar matters.

In addition to accepting the general principles and standards laid down in these provisions, member states have undertaken to transmit to the council all present and future contracts and agreements relating to international air matters, and to file statistics on ' operations, so that the council may have at its disposal full information upon which it may base its report and examinations. Fifty-one nations have signed the interim agreement, and thirty-five nations have indicated their acceptance of it.

I believe that in the preparation of the documents covered by this resolution, and in the establishment of the provisional international civil aviation organization, the Canadian government, and other participating governments, have made a substantial contribution to international development, and international understanding, and in so doing

International Civil Aviation

have risen above petty partisan considerations. The framework provided is good, and the potentialities for the future are great. There can be no question in my mind upon the desirability of prompt approval of the resolution which I am presenting, for it represents the logical outcome of an enlightened policy of international cooperation, which should receive the support of every group in this house.

Topic:   INTERNATIONAL CIVIL AVIATION
Subtopic:   APPROVAL OF AGREEMENTS OF DECEMBER 7, 1944 AND FEBRUARY 10, 1945
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PC

John George Diefenbaker

Progressive Conservative

Mr. J. G. DIEFENBAKER (Lake Centre):

Mr. Speaker, the house has listened with rapt attention to the resume given by the minister in regard to the conference at Chicago. It reveals one more step along the road of Canada's participation with the great nations of the world in the setting up of instruments for the preservation of peace. It is impossible, properly to discuss the subject matter of the address delivered here this afternoon by the minister, who has gone into a great deal of detail; and for that reason after a few observations I intend to move the adjournment of the debate on this resolution.

- I agree with the minister when he says that those who participated in this conference at Chicago made a magnificent contribution to the establishment of an international set-up to control aviation. Aviation, internationally, must be controlled, for all realize that aeroplanes carry not only passengers but also bombs. I was very much impressed by the minister's explanation of the necessity of all the nations participating being in agreement that all arrangements into which they have entered prior to this conference be abrogated or in any event filed with the organization.

Possible disagreements among the nations of the world make control of international aviation necessary. Aviation, properly controlled internationally, can become mankind's handmaiden for peace. Uncontrolled, it will remain a potential destroyer of mankind in the years to come.

In the minister's peroration he mentioned the fact that Canada had made a fine contribution through its representation at Chicago. I am happy to join him in that statement. I followed that conference through the press 'as fully as it was possible to do through that medium. Canada's representatives, as they did at San Francisco, performed a proud part and made a great contribution. The minister asks that as far as this debate is concerned it be kept above the-realm of partisanship and party politics. With that view and with that request I am in entire agreement.

I have noticed a distinct trend during the past two years in this house. By reason of the fact that the government has shown in

international affairs a desire to cooperate with the parties in other parts of the house, there is springing up in this chamber a common denominator among all parties, namely, a cooperative desire to assure that in international affairs there shall be a united front in this House of Commons and that Canada shall speak with a united voice.

There was one phase with which the minister did not deal. He mentioned the fact that some fifty-two nations had agreed to this international agreement. One of the nations is China, which was denied an opportunity to participate in the international conference of 1919. Russia was another nation that did not participate in 1919. We all realize the difficulties that occurred in Europe during the nineteen-twenties and thirties by reason of the fact that the agreements made at that conference were not generally accepted. Having regard to all the circumstances and being controlled, as he necessarily would be, by the exigencies of international diplomacy, the minister, I would have thought, would have given us some insight into the reason why the U.S.S.R. did not actively participate in this conference at Chicago.

The U.S.S.R. has a tremendous potential value in any international organization having to do with aviation. The U.S.S.R. is so situ- ' ated that she does not require freedom of transit or any of the other air freedoms the minister referred to in order to fly directly into China, Japan, Iran, Turkey, Roumania, Poland, Canada and the United States, to mention only a few of the nations I jotted down while the minister was speaking. Russia is so placed that she can develop her own aviation set-up without regard to those being developed in contiguous or adjoining nations. I feel bound to add that unless the cooperation of the U.S.S.R. can be obtained in connection with this organization, the great hopes expressed by the minister may very well not be possible of attainment.

I am sure that every effort was made to secure the cooperation of this country. She cooperated in San Francisco. Under the air agreement entered into at Chicago there is no greater denial or abdication of sovereignty in so far as any member nation is concerned than there was under the San Francisco organization, with the one possible exception, in connection with disputes and defaults. If I understood the minister aright, he stated that all the signatory nations to these agreements were bound to accept the decisions of the permanent court of international justice on any disputes submitted to it. I do not so read articles 84 and 85. I may be misinterpreting

Armed Forces-Transportation

their meaning, but those two articles lead me to believe that all that has actually been agreed upon is that if a nation expresses a willingness and desire to have adjudication made by the international court of justice, in that event the decision of the court is final. But if any nation which is a signatory to this agreement decides that it will not accept the decision of the international court of justice, it would not in fact either be bound to have its disputes adjudicated upon or be bound by the decisions of that court.

I realize the difficulty of seeing an obligatory submission by sovereign nations to the court. I realize that nations are still endeavouring to retain their sovereignty. In my opinion one of the weaknesses of the united nations organization is the fact that nations are not bound to accept adjudication by the international court of justice. One of the weaknesses of this agreement or convention is the fact that in respect of infractions of its provisions there is not that compulsory adjudication which alone can assure the application of the rule of law in international affairs.

By and large, and subject to an examination of what the minister has said, we on this side of the house are going to give undivided support to the convention reached at the international civil aviation conference. We realize that it lacks all the force which we ^iad hoped it would possess. The fact that it does not include the U.S.S.R. is one of the most-serious drawbacks in so far as Canada is concerned, having regard to her strategic position. Realizing that one can never expect complete perfection in international agreements, no less than in any other type of agreement; believing that the representatives of Canada have exercised every endeavour to assure even greater powers than those comprised within the agreement, this party accords complete acceptance of the principles of the agreement and intends to support the resolution in its entirety.

With those few words and with a view to giving other members of the house and myself an opportunity of studying the speech just delivered by the minister, I move the adjournment of the debate.

Topic:   INTERNATIONAL CIVIL AVIATION
Subtopic:   APPROVAL OF AGREEMENTS OF DECEMBER 7, 1944 AND FEBRUARY 10, 1945
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CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. STANLEY KNOWLES (Winnipeg North Centre):

Mr. Speaker, I am not objecting to the motion made by the hon. member; ' in fact I am quite prepared to second it, but since its adoption will adjourn the discussion I would just like to have a moment before we leave this subject to-day, to say that we in this group wish it to be known that we support the resolution now before the house. We would like .to commend the government

for the steps they have taken to achieve as much as possible of international cooperation in the field of civil aviation. With those remarks and with the hope that they will not exhaust my right to speak further when the debate is resumed, I have pleasure in seconding the motion made by the hon. member for Lake Centre.

Motion (Mr. Diefenbaker) agreed to and debate adjourned.

Topic:   INTERNATIONAL CIVIL AVIATION
Subtopic:   APPROVAL OF AGREEMENTS OF DECEMBER 7, 1944 AND FEBRUARY 10, 1945
Permalink

CANADIAN ARMED FORCES

TRANSPORTATION OVERSEAS FOR PERSONNEL RESIDENT IN ENGLAND


On the orders of the day:


LIB

Lionel Chevrier (Minister of Transport)

Liberal

Hon. LIONEL CHEVRIER (Minister of Transport):

Mr. Speaker, on Friday of last

week the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Black) asked what the government's policy, was with respect to the transportation of men who fought in the Canadian services but who have homes in England and desire to return to them. He referred to the fact that on her return voyage the Queen Elizabeth had certain empty berths. The senior member for Halifax (Mr. Isnor) made a similar inquiry of my colleague, the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Abbott), and myself. Yesterday I told the hon. gentleman that the matter was one which came under the jurisdiction of the British ministry of war transport and that a part of his question was perhaps referable to my colleague the Minister of National Defence. I have conferred with him and I find that he has no jurisdiction in the matter either. In order to give my hon. friend full satisfaction, I have communicated with the transport controller, who assures me that the allocation of passage for troops including the Queen Elizabeth, is a matter exclusively under the control of the British ministry of war transport. Probably the best advice I can give my hon. friend is that he address his inquiry to H. W. Eagle, secretary, British ministry of war transport, Windsor station, Montreal.

This morning I received a.telephone call from Mr. Rolfe, president of the veterans of foreign wars, and I gave him the same answer, and assured him that I would make representations to the British .ministry of war transport to ascertain whether the Queen Elizabeth on its return voyage could not carry these men.

Topic:   CANADIAN ARMED FORCES
Subtopic:   TRANSPORTATION OVERSEAS FOR PERSONNEL RESIDENT IN ENGLAND
Permalink
PC

Percy Chapman Black

Progressive Conservative

Mr. P. C. BLACK (Cumberland):

I thank the minister, but I would point out that other steamers which I understand are under Canadian jurisdiction, the Lady boats, hospital ships, are returning to England with their berths practically empty. Many of these men who have served in the Canadian army and

Veterans Affairs

whose homes are in England are prepared to pay for their transport back to England. All they ask after serving this country is an opportunity to return on some boat going back empty, and up to the present they have not been given that opportunity.

Topic:   CANADIAN ARMED FORCES
Subtopic:   TRANSPORTATION OVERSEAS FOR PERSONNEL RESIDENT IN ENGLAND
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LIB

Douglas Charles Abbott (Minister of National Defence; Minister of National Defence for Naval Services)

Liberal

Hon. D. C. ABBOTT (Minister of National Defence):

Perhaps I might answer that question. My hon. friend probably has in mind the Lady Rodney. She is under the Canadiah army so far as troop movements are concerned, but so far as civilian passengers are concerned that matter is entirely under the British ministry of war transport. The Lady Rodney has only about twenty berths for civilian passengers. The rest of the ship is equipped with bunks and so on for troops. There is no staff provided on the ship to care for other than troops. The troops take care of themselves when crossing. The British ministry of war transport do not wish the Lady Rodney to transport civilians. I understand that there are from twenty to twenty-five men in Halifax, but there are several hundred in Canada in this category wanting passage heme to England, and there are varying degrees of priority. The priority on which they will be returned to Great Britain is determined by the British ministry of war transport. I can assure my hon. friend that I, too, have been in touch with Mr. Eagle, and my officers have been advised that the civilian space on the Lady Rodney is fully taken up and that there are no facilities for taking civilian passengers on return trips.

Topic:   CANADIAN ARMED FORCES
Subtopic:   TRANSPORTATION OVERSEAS FOR PERSONNEL RESIDENT IN ENGLAND
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SC

Ernest George Hansell

Social Credit

Mr. E. G. HANSELL (Macleod):

May I

ask whether the same answer applies to the wives of men in the active forces who desire to go to England?

Topic:   CANADIAN ARMED FORCES
Subtopic:   TRANSPORTATION OVERSEAS FOR PERSONNEL RESIDENT IN ENGLAND
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LIB

Douglas Charles Abbott (Minister of National Defence; Minister of National Defence for Naval Services)

Liberal

Mr. ABBOTT:

It applies still more to

them. On the troopships the servicing of the troops is done by the troops themselves. The regulations will not permit civilian passengers to be carried in space that is not suited to them and where no staff is provided to care for them. So that the answer would apply even more to women under those conditions.

Topic:   CANADIAN ARMED FORCES
Subtopic:   TRANSPORTATION OVERSEAS FOR PERSONNEL RESIDENT IN ENGLAND
Permalink

VETERANS AFFAIRS

REHABILITATION STATUS OF PERSONNEL JOINING INTERIM AIR FORCE


On the orders of the day:


November 6, 1945