October 30, 1945

PRIVILEGE-MR. BRACKEN JUDGES ACT AMENDMENT-DECISION OF MR. SPEAKER, OCTOBER 29, ON MOTION FOR LEAVE TO INTRODUCE BILL

PC

John Bracken (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. JOHN BRACKEN (Leader of the Opposition):

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege. It has to do with the report of the proceedings of this house yesterday.

Privilege-Mr. Bracken

Yesterday Your Honour ruled out of order a bill to amend the Judges Act introduced by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles). In giving your reasons Your Honour stated as follows, as reported in Hansard, page 1569:

I would draw to the attention of the hon. member the fact that I am under the impression that this bill is out of order, because it involves an expenditure of money. So I rule the bill out of order.

And a little later on Your Honour made the following comment:

As I have said, I believe that the bill as drafted deals with public expenditures, and therefore is out of order.

It is clear that Your Honour's reason for ruling the bill out of order was your impression that it involved an expenditure of public money. I have not seen the bill, so I have no opinion on that subject.

However, in Votes and Proceedings of yesterday, No. 37, which document I believe is the binding and authoritative record of this house, there appears the following statement:

Mr. Speaker ruled that the introduction of such a bill was out of order on the ground that alterations in the salaries fixed by the Judges Act and judges retirement annuities, even by way of reductions, cannot be moved in the house by a private member, but that they can only be proposed by a minister of the crown on the Governor General's recommendation to be considered in committee of the whole by resolution prior to the introduction of a bill.

Mr. Speaker, nowhere in Your Honour's words can be read or implied the reason that appears in Votes and Proceedings. The matter is of some importance, as it affects the rules of the house. I do not believe that Votes and Proceedings should ascribe ' to Your Honour words or reasons which you did not use in addressing this house and therefore create a precedent for the future. The reasons which Your Honour gave are not those recited in the Volei and Proceedings, and the reasons given in Votes and Proceedings are, I suggest with all deference, not well established. If allowed to pass without protest they might eventually lead to a precedent, which would make it impossible for a private, member to move in committee of supply for the reduction of an estimate.

I would respectfully ask Your Honour to take the matter into consideration and to communicate to the house, at a later date, your opinion on the matters I have raised.

Topic:   PRIVILEGE-MR. BRACKEN JUDGES ACT AMENDMENT-DECISION OF MR. SPEAKER, OCTOBER 29, ON MOTION FOR LEAVE TO INTRODUCE BILL
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CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. STANLEY KNOWLES (Winnipeg North Centre):

May I say just a word on

the matter referred to by the leader of the opposition (Mr. Bracken)? I did not know

that he was going to raise the question, but I am grateful to him for the interest he ha3 taken, not on my behalf but on behalf of all members of the house. If Your Honour accedes to the suggestion of looking further into the matter I would ask that you consider the fact that on March 6, 1944, a bill exactly the same-

Topic:   PRIVILEGE-MR. BRACKEN JUDGES ACT AMENDMENT-DECISION OF MR. SPEAKER, OCTOBER 29, ON MOTION FOR LEAVE TO INTRODUCE BILL
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?

Some hon. MEMBERS:

Order.

Topic:   PRIVILEGE-MR. BRACKEN JUDGES ACT AMENDMENT-DECISION OF MR. SPEAKER, OCTOBER 29, ON MOTION FOR LEAVE TO INTRODUCE BILL
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CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. KNOWLES:

-was introduced and allowed by the Speaker of that day for first reading.

Topic:   PRIVILEGE-MR. BRACKEN JUDGES ACT AMENDMENT-DECISION OF MR. SPEAKER, OCTOBER 29, ON MOTION FOR LEAVE TO INTRODUCE BILL
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LIB

James Horace King (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER:

I may say to the leader

of the opposition that I have noted his remarks.

' [Later:.]

Topic:   PRIVILEGE-MR. BRACKEN JUDGES ACT AMENDMENT-DECISION OF MR. SPEAKER, OCTOBER 29, ON MOTION FOR LEAVE TO INTRODUCE BILL
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CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. KNOWLES:

When the leader of the opposition raised a point of order this afternoon at three o'clock with respect to a bill which I had introduced yesterday, not knowing that he was going to do so I was unable to turn up quickly enough two references which I wish to draw to the attention of His Honour the Speaker. In view of the statement made by His Honour that the matter would be noted, may I ask that when he does so he take into consideration the rulings on similar matters referred to in Beauchesne, third edition, at pages 457 and 529. One of these references deals specifically with a bill that did require later on the appropriating of money, which Mr. Speaker Sproule ruled was not a money bill, and the other refers to a case where a former speaker made a decision similar to the one made yesterday, but later gave an opposite ruling.

Topic:   PRIVILEGE-MR. BRACKEN JUDGES ACT AMENDMENT-DECISION OF MR. SPEAKER, OCTOBER 29, ON MOTION FOR LEAVE TO INTRODUCE BILL
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LIB

William Ross Macdonald (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER:

I shall bring

the hon. member's representations to the attention of His Honour the Speaker.

Topic:   PRIVILEGE-MR. BRACKEN JUDGES ACT AMENDMENT-DECISION OF MR. SPEAKER, OCTOBER 29, ON MOTION FOR LEAVE TO INTRODUCE BILL
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PRIME MINISTER ATTLEE

VISIT TO WASHINGTON-CONSULTATIONS ON CONTROL OF ATOMIC POWER


On the orders of the day: *


PC

John Bracken (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. JOHN BRACKEN (Leader of the Opposition) :

I wish to direct a question to the Acting Secretary of State for External Affairs. May I ask him whether the government has any information regarding the reported visit of the Prime Minister of Great Britain, Mr. Attlee, to this continent? *Will an invitation be extended to Mr. Attlee to visit Canada, and has consideration been given to inviting him to address the members of the Senate and the House of Commons?

1626

Prime Minister Attlee

Hon. L. S. ST. LAURENT (Acting Secretary of State for External Affairs): I had anticipated the first part of the leader of the opposition's question, and I have a short statement to make in that regard, which, will serve as an answer to that part of the question.

Hon. members will be interested to leam that the following statement was issued this morning by the President of the United States:

Prime Minister Attlee will visit the president in Washington early next month to discuss with him and Prime Minister Mackenzie King of Canada problems to which the discovery of atomic energy has given rise. The Prime Minister is expected1 to arrive in Washington so that discussions can begin about November 11.

In this connection, I may be permitted to recall that on October 3, in a message which President Truman addressed to congress on the subject of the domestic and international control of atomic power, he forecast the forthcoming discussions in Washington in the following language:

I therefore propose to initiate discussions, first with -our associates in this discovery, Great ^Britain and Canada, and then with other nations, in an effort to effect agreement on the -conditions under which cooperation might replace rivalry in the field of atomic power.

The arrangements Which have now been *completed for this preliminary discussion -between the 'heads of the three governments which have been associated in this vastly important new development make it necessary for the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) to alter his plans. He will return to this continent sooner than he expected and he has been compelled to forgo his intention of visiting the Canadian troops stationed in Germany and the Netherlands and also of seeing something of conditions in the countries of western Europe.

As to the second part of the question sub-, mifted by the Leader of the Opposition, the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King), as Secretary of State for External Affairs, has been dealing with all the arrangements relating to Mr. Attlee's and his own visit to Washington, and I have no doubt he has had very much in mind the considerations which have prompted the latter part of the question. As soon as we receive any information from him in this regard, I will very promptly communicate it to the house.

IMr. Bracken.]

Topic:   PRIME MINISTER ATTLEE
Subtopic:   VISIT TO WASHINGTON-CONSULTATIONS ON CONTROL OF ATOMIC POWER
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UNITED NATIONS

INQUIRY AS TO RATIFICATION OF CHARTER ON BEHALF OF CANADA


On the orders of the day:


PC

John Bracken (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. JOHN BRACKEN (Leader of the Opposition):

I have a further question to direct to the Acting Secretary of State for External Affairs. Now that the united nations' charter has been approved by both houses of parliament, what action has been taken to ratify the charter on behalf of Canada? Has the instrument of ratification been forwarded to His Majesty for approval, and when is it anticipated that this instrument will be deposited with the United States government, in accordance with the terms of the charter?

Hon. L. S. ST. LAURENT (Acting Secretary of State for External Affairs): Anticipating the probable approval of the resolution pending before the senate last Thursday, the instrument of ratification was forwarded in the diplomatic bag to the Secretary of State for External Affairs in London to be completed by him there as soon as advised by cable that the formal approval had been assented to by the senate. This information was cabled to the Prime Minister on- Thursday night or Friday morning, as soon as it became known to the Under-Secretary of State for External Affairs, and he was to complete the document there and present it himself to His Majesty for signature and return it with as great dispatch as possible; because we were anxious, if we could do so, to deposit it with the Secretary of State of the United States before November 1. We may not have it before November 1, but we expect to receive it within the next two or three days.

Topic:   UNITED NATIONS
Subtopic:   INQUIRY AS TO RATIFICATION OF CHARTER ON BEHALF OF CANADA
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REPRESENTATION OF THE GOVERNMENT AT THE CONFERENCE BEING HELD IN QUEBEC


On the orders of the day:


LIB

Maurice Lalonde

Liberal

Mr. MAURICE LALONDE (Labelle) (Translation):

Mr. Speaker, may I ask the hon. the Minister of Justice (Mr. St. Laurent), acting Secretary of State for External Affairs, whether it is the government's intention to be represented by one of the ministers at the international conference of the Food and Agriculture Organization now being held in Quebec, before the proceedings of that body are concluded?

Hon. LOUIS S. ST. LAURENT (Minister of Justice): Mr. Speaker, to-morrow night at Quebec the Canadian government will entertain at dinner all the members of the confer-

Veterans Affairs

ence, and the intention is that it should be represented on that occasion by the hon. the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) and by myself.

Topic:   REPRESENTATION OF THE GOVERNMENT AT THE CONFERENCE BEING HELD IN QUEBEC
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VETERANS AFFAIRS

October 30, 1945