Mr. JACKMAN:

May I ask several questions? The first one has to do with these gratuities. The only reason why I raise it again, in order that it may be settled very clearly now, is that in regard to clothing allowance the matter was not made retroactive, and none of us could understand why that was the case. Would the minister undertake that, in the order in council which is now being drafted-

Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):

I am afraid it is passed; otherwise I could not refer to it.

Mr. JACKMAN:

Will the minister please do his best to make sure that all cases which have arisen during this war are covered, so that there is no cut-off date as there is in the matter of clothing allowance, et cetera?

The other matter to which I wish to refer is that of commissions. We had lengthy discussions in the committee in previous sessions. Would the minister say something about the R.C.A.F. personnel who formed aircrew with R.A.F. squadrons? In previous years we found that commissions came through very slowly when some of our personnel were attached to R.A.F. squadrons. Perhaps the minister will be good enough to give figures to the committee showing the number of aircrew in the R.C.A.F. who have commissions and those who are non-commissioned, and the number of aircrew who are commissioned in the R.A.F. and those who are not?

In previous years we discussed the method of demobilization out of the air force. As I recall it the hon. member for Quebec South presented several alternatives to us and then tossed the ball across the floor of the house and said, "What would you do in these circumstances?" We could not do any better than he was suggesting, and there was no final conclusion. Has the department finally arrived at a method of demobilization which is fair? Are they going to adopt the principle of first in, first out, or are they going to demobilize air force personnel having regard not only to length of service but to their dependents and other factors which may be taken into consideration?

I should like the minister to elaborate to some extent on this matter of personnel counsellors in the air force and in the Women's Division. He mentioned it. Exactly what is the set-up? Exactly how many personnel counsellors are there? Could he give it to us on the basis of so many per thousand in the air force, or according to units, so that we can understand it?

I was' a little bit shaken by his denial of responsibility for the future of the boys in the air force. I do not think the minister meant to rid himself entirely of responsibility once the men were formally demobilized. Surely there is a responsibility on the part of the air force to make sure that everything that they can do is done for the personnel. The very existence of these personnel counsellors is an indication that the air force has some conscience in this regard. Who is to be responsible for placing the men demobilized from the air force? Would it 'come partly under the Department of Veterans' Affairs or partly under the unemployment insurance commission who are supposed to be able to find jobs for Canadians if they have none?

One further question in regard to the air cadet league; what relation has it to the Department of National Defence for Air? Are we appropriating any money at this time for its continuation and support? I understand the intention of the air cadet league, wherever they get the money from, is to maintain about 30,000 members for the present.

This is my final question. Would the minister say a word or two in elaboration of the part which the Royal Canadian Air Force will play in the Pacific war? To what extent will the present personnel be reduced once we have victory in Europe and are engaged solely in the Pacific fray?

Mr. GIBSON:

I do not think I can remember anything more like a rapid fire machine gun than my hon. friend. He has rattled out these questions so speedily that it is difficult

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even to keep track of them. But I will endeavour to answer them as well as I can. With regard to those that I am not able to answer at the present time I will get what information I can later. With respect to the question of the air cadet league, that is, of course, a civilian organization which has been of great assistance to the air force. It has looked after the training of air cadets. In the past the air force has endeavoured to keep very close connection with it and assist it in every way possible. I had the pleasure of attending a dinner of the air cadet league here about a week ago, and while I could not give them any definite assurance as to the extent of the support we would be able to give them after the war I did tell them that we wanted to retain our close contact with them; that we are going to assist the cadets as we had done in the past. Arrangements are being made again this year to take the cadets to camp and give them some flights. They do get some financial support from the government, although I do not know the amount.

At one time I understand they had some difficulty in regard to commissioned officers. It was felt at one time that perhaps there were more officers with commissions than could1 be justified. That has been straightened out now with the result that every cadet corps, if they have at least seventy-five cadets, are entitled to have commissioned officers in their organization.

With regard to the question of personnel counsellors, we have 256 fully trained personnel counsellors at the present time. They have been established in units all over Canada. In addition, there are some sixty-five positions that have been established overseas, including the United' Kingdom, Egypt, Italy and India. A number of positions are being established' at [DOT] release centres throughout Canada where their duties include the completion of forms as well as counselling the personnel who had not had an opportunity prior to their appearance at the release centres-

Mr. JACKMAN:

Do these counsellors

have other duties in the air force, or are they solely devoted to that one?

Mr. GIBSON:

I understand they are

solely devoted to that purpose.

With regard to the question of demobilization, it will largely be on the basis of first in, first out, although we cannot guarantee that it can be carried' out entirely in that way. If a unit is brought back and demobilized as a unit there might be some men who have had lesser service, who will be

demobilized', than others who. have been in longer with another unit perhaps still serving overseas. But in the air force we perhaps are not as badly off as in the other forces. Indeed we are bringing back men from overseas after they have had three years' service there, so that by degrees we have been getting men with the longer service reestablished in civil life as they have completed their long years of service in the force.

Mr. JACKMAN:

There is no cut and

dried formula? .

Mr. GIBSON:

There is no cut and dried

formula that will guarantee that a man with a certain period of service will not be demobilized before somebody else who may have a longer period of service; but the endeavour throughout is that the first in, first out policy will be carried out.

The hon. member also asked a question as to what extent the R.C.A.F. will cooperate in the second phase in the war against Japan. We have had discussions on that. They have -been going on for some considerable time but the extent of the contributions has not yet been definitely determined. They depend1 to a considerable extent on the conditions that are existing at the time we complete the first phase; that is the end of the war with Germany. The air force will be acting in cooperation with the R.A.F., and' I had the pleasure of meeting the officer who is going to command the R.A.F. He was out here a few weeks ago. We had discussions at that time, but no final action can be taken until we know exactly where we are going and exactly the task that we shall be given and to what extent airfields will be available or whether we shall have first of all to construct airfields before our squadrons can actually go aver there and start operations. Those are matters which cannot be actually determined at the present time, although, as I have said, discussions are going on and every effort is being made to arrive at as definite an arrangement as we can reach so that plans may be made, for instance, to bring back to this country the squadrons that will be nominated for service in the east. They will be brought back first, given a period of leave and put through a period of remustering and training prior to their dispatch to the Pacific sphere.

Mr. JACKMAN:

Will the personnel have to revolunteer for the Pacific war?

Mr. GIBSON:

What it amounts to is that while we designate the units that will be sent there, any of the personnel who indicate that they do not wish to continue further will be

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replaced; and since we have a very large number who will be wanting to go, there will be no difficulty in filling those places.

Mr. JACKMAN:

The other question I

wanted to ask was in regard to the commissioning of aircrew. Formerly we found that R.C.A.F. boys serving with R.A.F. squadrons did not receive the same recognition as far as commissioning was concerned as did the boys serving in our own units. Would the minister care to make some reference to that matter? I also asked for the figures, if the minister has them handy, in regard to the percentage of aircrew in the R.C.A.F. who are commissioned and the percentage non-commissioned, and the percentage of aircrew in the R.A.F. who are commissioned and non-commissioned.

Mr. GIBSON:

I have not those figures as

to percentages, but I can say that my predecessor had very strong views on the question of commissioning, and I understand that the commissioning of members of the R.C.A.F. serving with the R.A.F. is entirely in the ' ands of the R.C.A.F. That plan has been in operation now for some considerable time. The Royal Canadian Air Force takes responsibility for giving commissions to its members, whether they are serving with' R.CA.F. or R.A.F. squadrons.

Mr. CASTLEDEN:

I believe the committee will generally approve the plans the minister has outlined, particularly in regard to the skeleton training force that is being set up across Canada. I should like to state that the Yorkton district is appreciative of the good judgment exercised by the officials in selecting Yorkton as one of the permanent bases for training. No. 23 flying training school has replaced No. 11 which had one of the finest records in Canada for efficiency, and Yorkton is on the direct air line between Winnipeg and Edmonton.

In regard to this training, I think the people of Canada are glad to see the lead that has been given by this department in regard to the personnel counsellor courses that have been given. I should like to ask the minister how many men and women will be requiring (a) university training and (b) technical training as a result of the work of these counsellors so far. Those who have made a survey of this situation are somewhat concerned about the facilities available in this country for university and technical training; and if the government is to continue with this plan I think it would be well advised to look into the possibility of using some of the schools which already have facilities for educational centres to accommodate these people. I am quite sure

that most of the provinces would welcome the cooperation of the dominion government in their rehabilitation plans, possibly leading to some joint scheme under which the provinces and the dominion could work together in this particular educational field. It would be just too bad if some of these schools should be turned over to War Assets Corporation, without consideration being given to the possibility of using them as training schools or educational centres.

Regarding rehabilitation, a good many of the men returning from overseas will not know for at least a few months what they would like to do. Possibly a year or even two years will be required by some of these people to settle down into the normal course of life. I think it might help a great deal if the government could give us some idea of the number of men they plan to retain in a sort of permanent force. Is it the intention of the government to have a more or less regular air force, or is it rather the idea that refresher courses will be given in these various schools to ex-members of the air force and others Who may want to take the training, so that we may have a fairly large number of private citizens who have taken training but are not necessarily attached to a regular force? I believe a good many men who have been in the air force would like to continue that life, to which they have found themselves well adapted. They will be asking whether or not there is a possibility of staying on in some sort of permanent force.

There is one thing I should like to tell the government, arising from my personal experience with boys who have taken part in the air cadet scheme. These lads in the high schools took a great interest in this work and became very much air-minded. I thought it was rather unfortunate that when it was decided to halt enlistments, these boys were not taken in and given every opportunity to join the air force. Their disappointment was very great after having trained with the cadets for a couple of years, after having obtained top marks, only to find when they came of age to enlist that there was no opportunity to go into the air force, and that they were left only the army in which to enlist. There is a sort of esprit de corps among men who have been in the air force and boys who have trained for it. When the minister stated that men who were surplus to requirements were being discharged1 from the air force and taken into the army it occurred to me that he might have done a great service to these men if he had made arrangements with the Department of National Defence to have them taken into the army as a sort of air force division, remustered as army. There may be military

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reasons why that could not have been done, but after talking to men who have had to go into the army I believe some such scheme would have worked advantageously to both services.

Mr. GIBSON:

I must say to my hon. friend that I am very proud indeed1 of my connection with the air force, but when I think of my past connection with the army I d'o not like to hear him say they had "only the army to go into." I believe any man who has the honour of serving in the army should be proud of it, although I realize that there was a great deal of disappointment on the part of those who had served in the air cadets and who had looked forward to continuing into the air force. However, I do not think we would have been justified in continuing to take men into the air force after we had trained a sufficient number to meet all possible requirements.

I had the same idea as my hon. friend, that it would have been a good thing to form say air force battalions in the army, to allow those men who were released from the air force, or who had been air cadets, to continue to wear the uniform and to operate as air force units in the Canadian army. I took up that matter with the Minister of National Defence, and found that there were several fairly strong reasons against it. One was that they could not serve overseas as a unit in view of the fact that our army was right up to establishment, and to replace any one unit would have meant disbanding a unit already serving in one of the overseas divisions. It was not felt that any unit that was serving overseas, having won great distinction throughout the war, would appreciate being told1 that they would be disbanded to make way for a new air force battalion just formed. Consequently that idea was not proceeded with.

As to the question of university training, I should like to have the parliamentary assistant speak on that, since he has had a good deal of experience with the work the universities are doing to take care of service personnel.

Mr. MACMILLAN:

With reference to the remarks of the hon. member for Yorkton (Mr. Castleden), it will be interesting to the committee to know that the universities of Canada are making every possible provision for these men and women when they come back. We expect thousands of them to apply for university courses. Because of the nature of air force work, the educational standard is, in general, higher than in the other services. It is estimated that over sixty per cent of the men in the air force have had junior matriculation or, better, senior or two or three

years at college. There has been a break of from one to four years and these men and women will have to pick up their education where they left off. In my own university, for example, over 300 have come back this year; 220 came back in January. Instead of having one date for registration at the beginning of the college session, the universities have now changed that to three dates; in other words, if a man is mustered out in December he does not have to wait until next September to begin his college course. Provision is made to have him begin his course in January and again on the first of June. In two calendar years he covers three years of college work. His course is accelerated. I am sure the committee will be glad to know also that the impression these men have made on the university authorities throughout Canada has been excellent. During the war years, as we know, the number of women students has largely increased while the number of men students has decreased, and in the interests of the future of the country it is absolutely essential, as the hon. member has said, that provision be made for the continued education of these young men when they return. Some went overseas at the age of eighteen or nineteen, and they are coming back at the age of twenty-two or twenty-three to resume their interrupted studies. Our experience is that for the first few days they find life a bit strange; but, to use their own language, they get back on the beam quickly and they stay on the beam. It is my opinion, and the opinion also of others who have come in contact with them, that these young men will be the stabilizing force in this country. They must be cared for and1 guided1, and no expense should be spared to carry them forward to their objective; otherwise we are heading for disaster. These young men have given evidence of industry, diligence and seriousness and they are disciplined. They are the greatest asset that this country possesses at the present time.

Mr. CASTLEDEN:

I asked for some figures as to the approximate number of students who would require university training, whether or not the university facilities in Canada are sufficient and whether it would be possible to use some of the training school building equipment now there to meet the requirements. Or do the present facilities in Canada meet the requirements for university training? There will be many thousands coming from the army, as well, it must be remembered.

Mr. MACMILLAN:

It is difficult to predict the number who will apply for university training. The universities of Canada at present are not adequately equipped for in-

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creased numbers, but they are making provision for the necessary equipment, in; accordance with the demands that may be made, in extending buildings, laboratories and teaching personnel.

Mr. CASTLEDEN:

Does that apply to technical training across the country?

Mr. MACMILLAN:

I understand it does.

Mr. DIEFENBAKER:

One matter on

which I should like to secure some enlightenment has to do with the discharge of men from the air force and the various regulations that have been passed since October last with regard to drafting these men into the army. To begin with, there was a rule, if I remember rightly, that any of these men who had been in the air force for two years or over would not be subject to call-up in the army. Then in October that order was changed and provision was made that men were not subject to call if they had been in the air force for three years and over. Another change was made on January 15, making these men liable regardless of the time they had served in the air force, provided, of course, they had not served beyond the confines of Canada or in coastal patrol. If there is one thing more than another wrhich we must endeavour to prevent it is the feeling of resentment and frustration in our armed forces. There were

4.200 discharged in the month of November and they went into civil life. Some of them accepted discharges and others in due course enlisted in the army. Upon their discharge from the air force they received the outfit allowance of $100. Then, later on, they joined, in many cases, voluntarily, the army believing that they would retain the outfit allowance which had been paid to them, and after they found their way into the army they were informed that monthly deductions would be made from their pay until the $100 had been repaid.