August 12, 1944

LIB

William Henry Moore

Liberal

Mr. MOORE:

Yes.

Topic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   CONDITIONS GOVERNING TEN-YEAR EXTENSION OP BANK CHARTERS
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LIB

Gerald Grattan McGeer

Liberal

Mr. McGEER:

It it not a fact that as a result of that action Germany did liquidate her entire internal debts?

Topic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   CONDITIONS GOVERNING TEN-YEAR EXTENSION OP BANK CHARTERS
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LIB

William Henry Moore

Liberal

Mr. MOORE:

Yes, repudiated them.

Topic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   CONDITIONS GOVERNING TEN-YEAR EXTENSION OP BANK CHARTERS
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LIB

Gerald Grattan McGeer

Liberal

Mr. McGEER:

Is it not a fact that following that she proceeded with the same kind of currency to build a war machine with which she attacked the world?

Topic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   CONDITIONS GOVERNING TEN-YEAR EXTENSION OP BANK CHARTERS
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LIB

William Henry Moore

Liberal

Mr. MOORE:

We will just follow that with you. We have heard that the thing can be done by price control. If we wanted to liquidate our foreign debt as has been suggested, repudiate our foreign obligations, we might do it. I would not vote for the measure.

Topic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   CONDITIONS GOVERNING TEN-YEAR EXTENSION OP BANK CHARTERS
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LIB

Gerald Grattan McGeer

Liberal

Mr. McGEER:

Who suggested it?

Topic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   CONDITIONS GOVERNING TEN-YEAR EXTENSION OP BANK CHARTERS
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LIB

William Henry Moore

Liberal

Mr. MOORE:

I would not vote for the measure.

Topic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   CONDITIONS GOVERNING TEN-YEAR EXTENSION OP BANK CHARTERS
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LIB

Gerald Grattan McGeer

Liberal

Mr. McGEER:

Who suggested that?

Topic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   CONDITIONS GOVERNING TEN-YEAR EXTENSION OP BANK CHARTERS
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LIB

William Henry Moore

Liberal

Mr. MOORE:

Inferentially the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard, by his question.

Topic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   CONDITIONS GOVERNING TEN-YEAR EXTENSION OP BANK CHARTERS
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LIB

Gerald Grattan McGeer

Liberal

Mr. McGEER:

Mr. Chairman-

Topic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   CONDITIONS GOVERNING TEN-YEAR EXTENSION OP BANK CHARTERS
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?

Some hon. MEMBERS:

Order.

Topic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   CONDITIONS GOVERNING TEN-YEAR EXTENSION OP BANK CHARTERS
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LIB

William Henry Moore

Liberal

Mr. MOORE:

I want to be fair. That is all right.

Topic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   CONDITIONS GOVERNING TEN-YEAR EXTENSION OP BANK CHARTERS
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LIB

Gerald Grattan McGeer

Liberal

Mr. McGEER:

I am not worried about the brute majority.

Topic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   CONDITIONS GOVERNING TEN-YEAR EXTENSION OP BANK CHARTERS
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LIB

William Henry Moore

Liberal

Mr. MOORE:

I am not either.

Topic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   CONDITIONS GOVERNING TEN-YEAR EXTENSION OP BANK CHARTERS
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LIB

Gerald Grattan McGeer

Liberal

Mr. McGEER:

You have it behind you; I have not.

Topic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   CONDITIONS GOVERNING TEN-YEAR EXTENSION OP BANK CHARTERS
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LIB

William Henry Moore

Liberal

Mr. MOORE:

I do not know whether I shall or not when I get through. The hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard asked if it was not true that by these measures Germany repudiated its internal debt. I say I am not in favour of repudiating our internal or external debt by that kind of measure. I believe it was last night that either the hon.

member for Vancouver-Burrard or the hon. member for Parry Sound-I am not sure which-said that we did not need to fear anything of the sort, that inflation was a bogey, now that we had learned how to have price control. Well, let us look at that for a moment. We have price control. We have it as a war measure, and for more than one purpose. I would assume that one purpose is to divert the earnings or claims of the people, as far as can be done, to war services. The other is to keep prices down. We are used to the word "ceiling", although some people are not used to that word when it is applied to wages. On the whole however we take it, and take it well. We do so because we think of those boys overseas who have much heavier burdens than we have. But there is a different outlook when peace comes; you have a different problem of control. We must remember that we can have price control, and that they can have it in Russia much easier than we can have it in Canada. Whatever else we may be, we are an almost maturely developed country. There are something like a million articles in modern commerce, and they cannot be controlled by a central authority, no matter what the capacity and capabilities of the price control board may be.

I have quoted from von Mises. I want to give the committee his considered opinion, for I have the highest respect for him, and I know everyone who is interested in international economics holds him in highest opinion. This is his conclusion:

A government that sets out to abolish market prices is inevitably driven toward the abolition of private property. It has -to recognize that there is no middle way ibetwen the system of private property in the means of production combined with free contracts, and the system of common ownership of the means of production. It is gradually forced toward compulsory production, universal obligation to labour, rationing of consumption and, finally, official regulation of the whole of production and consumption.

This is the road that was taken by economic policy during the war. The eta.tist, who had jubilantly proclaimed the state's ability to do everything it wanted to do, discovered that the economists had nevertheless been quite right, and that it was not possible to manage with price regulation alone. Since they wished to eliminate the play of the market, they had to go farther than they had originally intended. The first step was the rationing of the most important necessaries; but soon compulsory labour had to be resorted to and eventually the subordination of the w-hole of production and consumption to the direction of the state. Private property existed in name only; in fact, it had been abolished.

And when that had been done the form of government had to be changed. Because,

Bank Act Amendment

after all, even forms of government must be altered, changed and adapted to the functions they are called upon to perform. And in that way Europe generally, and Germany especially fell into the condition which we are trying in this war to overthrow, and which we will never permit to come into this world again.

Topic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   CONDITIONS GOVERNING TEN-YEAR EXTENSION OP BANK CHARTERS
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SC

John Horne Blackmore

Social Credit

Mr. BLACKMORE:

Mr. Chairman, may I interrupt the process of debate to reply to the hon. member for Ontario. I appreciate that this good man is highly trained. Nevertheless I believe it will be in the interests of this committee that several observations be made with respect to some of the things he says. I trust I may be able to continue in the calm and quiet way in which he spoke-and I believe I can.

The hon. member said that money is a claim on goods. That is exactly right. The more goods a nation has, the more claims it can have. Is that not so? Is that not common sense? If money is a claim on goods, then the goods in a country can be increased and the claims on those goods can also be increased, just as fast as the goods increase. That ought to be quite clear. And if a nation is producing the goods, can anyone conceive of any reason why it should have to borrow the claims?

That is the contention of the hon. members for Vancouver-Burrard and Parry Sound. We in Canada are increasing goods and are able to increase our goods indefinitely, because of the bountiful resources this country has, because of our highly-trained human material, and also because of our great industrial development. Why should we ever have to borrow the claims on those goods?

Just as an illustration: If the hon. member for Ontario owned a large theatre with a seating capacity of one thousand, he could create one thousand tickets or claims on the seats. Can anyone conceive any reason why he should have to borrow those tickets from somebody else to claim the seats in his own theatre? Why should the tickets be borrowed and owed to somebody, and interest paid on them? That is a question this committee must examine.

The hon. member for Ontario used the illustration of the little shunting engine, and I gathered from what he said that he questioned the need for increasing the number of engines. I would ask hon. members this simple question: If a shunting engine were able to handle one hundred cars successfully, and the number of cars increased to two hundred, I wonder if the hon. member for Ontario would still try to handle all those cars with one engine. Would he not increase the number of engines to meet the increased number of cars?

Topic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   CONDITIONS GOVERNING TEN-YEAR EXTENSION OP BANK CHARTERS
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LIB

William Henry Moore

Liberal

Mr. MOORE:

Is the hon. member putting a question to me?

Topic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   CONDITIONS GOVERNING TEN-YEAR EXTENSION OP BANK CHARTERS
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SC

John Horne Blackmore

Social Credit

Mr. BLACKMORE:

Yes.

Topic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   CONDITIONS GOVERNING TEN-YEAR EXTENSION OP BANK CHARTERS
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LIB

William Henry Moore

Liberal

Mr. MOORE:

I just repeat what I said, that any marketable goods can always be financed. .

Topic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   CONDITIONS GOVERNING TEN-YEAR EXTENSION OP BANK CHARTERS
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August 12, 1944