July 27, 1944

LIB

Ian Alistair Mackenzie (Minister of Pensions and National Health)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):

Yes; of course with heavier premiums.

Topic:   QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS
Subtopic:   VETERANS' INSURANCE
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION OF LIFE INSURANCE FOR VETERANS OF THE PRESENT WAR
Permalink
CCF

George Hugh Castleden

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. CASTLEDEN:

I wonder how the government has arrived at this schedule. The minister has said the rates are generally lower than are found for ordinary insurance in the life insurance companies.

Topic:   QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS
Subtopic:   VETERANS' INSURANCE
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION OF LIFE INSURANCE FOR VETERANS OF THE PRESENT WAR
Permalink
LIB

Ian Alistair Mackenzie (Minister of Pensions and National Health)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):

Yes. This was compiled by the insurance branch of the government, and it is in conformity with the most modern practice of life insurance companies with, as I said this afternoon, a slightly lower rate than is accorded civilian applicants for ordinary life insurance.

Topic:   QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS
Subtopic:   VETERANS' INSURANCE
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION OF LIFE INSURANCE FOR VETERANS OF THE PRESENT WAR
Permalink
CCF

George Hugh Castleden

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. CASTLEDEN:

The ordinary life

insurance company has heavy expenses in connection with selling the insurance. In this case the government is doing that.

Topic:   QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS
Subtopic:   VETERANS' INSURANCE
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION OF LIFE INSURANCE FOR VETERANS OF THE PRESENT WAR
Permalink
LIB

Ian Alistair Mackenzie (Minister of Pensions and National Health)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):

There are no administrative charges at all. Those are absorbed by the state.

Topic:   QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS
Subtopic:   VETERANS' INSURANCE
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION OF LIFE INSURANCE FOR VETERANS OF THE PRESENT WAR
Permalink
CCF

George Hugh Castleden

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. CASTLEDEN:

Then, if the state is carrying all the administrative work, free of charge, it seems to me the rates are rather high. There is no cost of selling and no advertising.

Topic:   QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS
Subtopic:   VETERANS' INSURANCE
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION OF LIFE INSURANCE FOR VETERANS OF THE PRESENT WAR
Permalink
LIB

Ian Alistair Mackenzie (Minister of Pensions and National Health)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):

The hon. member will realize that in this instance the risks are very much greater than the ordinary life insurance company takes, because there is no medical examination. Honestly I believe that after looking into the matter to some extent the rates will be found to be very fair indeed.

Topic:   QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS
Subtopic:   VETERANS' INSURANCE
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION OF LIFE INSURANCE FOR VETERANS OF THE PRESENT WAR
Permalink
CCF

George Hugh Castleden

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. CASTLEDEN:

The figures would show that the government has on hand about $22,000,000 from the old fund. They also show that there are about 24,000 policies still in force.

Topic:   QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS
Subtopic:   VETERANS' INSURANCE
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION OF LIFE INSURANCE FOR VETERANS OF THE PRESENT WAR
Permalink
LIB

Ian Alistair Mackenzie (Minister of Pensions and National Health)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):

About 20,000.

Topic:   QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS
Subtopic:   VETERANS' INSURANCE
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION OF LIFE INSURANCE FOR VETERANS OF THE PRESENT WAR
Permalink
CCF

George Hugh Castleden

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. CASTLEDEN:

So that perhaps there would be about $40,000,000 of insurance?

Topic:   QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS
Subtopic:   VETERANS' INSURANCE
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION OF LIFE INSURANCE FOR VETERANS OF THE PRESENT WAR
Permalink
LIB

Ian Alistair Mackenzie (Minister of Pensions and National Health)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):

Yes; but the rate of mortality is increasing every day for those who are insured under the old act.

Topic:   QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS
Subtopic:   VETERANS' INSURANCE
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION OF LIFE INSURANCE FOR VETERANS OF THE PRESENT WAR
Permalink
NAT

John Ritchie MacNicol

National Government

Mr. MacNICOL:

And it will continue to

increase.

Topic:   QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS
Subtopic:   VETERANS' INSURANCE
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION OF LIFE INSURANCE FOR VETERANS OF THE PRESENT WAR
Permalink
LIB

Ian Alistair Mackenzie (Minister of Pensions and National Health)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):

Yes.

Topic:   QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS
Subtopic:   VETERANS' INSURANCE
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION OF LIFE INSURANCE FOR VETERANS OF THE PRESENT WAR
Permalink
CCF

George Hugh Castleden

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. CASTLEDEN:

It would seem therefore that there is about $20,000,000 on hand to meet obligations of about $40,000,000.

Topic:   QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS
Subtopic:   VETERANS' INSURANCE
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION OF LIFE INSURANCE FOR VETERANS OF THE PRESENT WAR
Permalink
LIB

Ian Alistair Mackenzie (Minister of Pensions and National Health)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):

Yes.

Topic:   QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS
Subtopic:   VETERANS' INSURANCE
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION OF LIFE INSURANCE FOR VETERANS OF THE PRESENT WAR
Permalink
CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. KNOWLES:

Has consideration been given to providing any form of insurance other than the ten, fifteen or twenty-payment life plan? The veteran at the age of thirty-five for example, may take out what is called a 20-pay-life policy under this legislation, for which the premium would be $29.04 per thousand per year. If the veteran desires insurance to provide an adequate amount of protection to meet his increasing family responsibilities it will be difficult to put on sufficient protection at a rate that high. There are other forms of insurance which come at cheaper rates and provide better coverage, such as taking a straight protection policy on the one hand and an annuity contract on the other. Straight protection or, as it is called, term insurance, could be had at a much lower rate per thousand than the figure I have mentioned as an example. Has consideration been given to offering the veteran two or three different

Veterans' Insurance

types of insurance rather than confining him to this one type? I do not feel that this serves all of the purposes which can be served by insurance, in the light of modern understanding of that subject.

Topic:   QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS
Subtopic:   VETERANS' INSURANCE
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION OF LIFE INSURANCE FOR VETERANS OF THE PRESENT WAR
Permalink
LIB

Ian Alistair Mackenzie (Minister of Pensions and National Health)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):

Of course there are two different principles, as my hon. friend must realize. This is really protection for dependents. Annuities are protection for the individuals themselves, during their lifetime. This on the other hand is essentially protection for the dependents of veterans.

Topic:   QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS
Subtopic:   VETERANS' INSURANCE
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION OF LIFE INSURANCE FOR VETERANS OF THE PRESENT WAR
Permalink
CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. KNOWLES:

There are two different forms all right, namely annuities on the one hand and protection on the other. But speaking now of the latter, there are different kinds of protection. One kind is this 20-pay-life policy, where the premium is fairly high, but paid over a relatively short space of time, at the end of which the policy is paid up. The other kind is term insurance, a type of insurance which many insurance agents despise, but which I believe best fills the bill for any man who wishes to provide protection of $10,000 or $15,000 for his family during the years when his children are dependents. It could be done at half or a third of these rates, in ordinary companies, if the medical examinations can be passed. My point is that the government is making this one kind of policy available to veterans, as set out in this bill, whether or not they can pass medical examinations. I am suggesting it should consider making some other types of policies available as well.

Section as amended agreed to.

On section 13-Minister may refuse to insure.

Topic:   QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS
Subtopic:   VETERANS' INSURANCE
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION OF LIFE INSURANCE FOR VETERANS OF THE PRESENT WAR
Permalink
LIB

Ross Wilfred Gray

Liberal

Mr. GRAY:

I call the minister's attention to class IV in schedule B, where it states:

In cases where an applicant with or without dependents whose health has become impaired as a result of immoral conduct prior to enlistment, during service or after discharge.

Applications are to be refused.

We might as well discuss this matter frankly. I presume the thought in connection with this general class has to do with the man who has contracted venereal disease. That is what is aimed at. May I at the outset commend the minister and the Department cf Pensions and National Health upon the vigorous campaign waged in the past few months in connection with the elimination of venereal disease. It does seem to me however that this clause, which refers to men who contracted the disease prior to enlistment and afterwards served, and men who

contracted it during service, should be limited to men who refused treatment, thereby putting themselves apart and in a situation where they do not deserve to receive insurance.. I am not holding any brief for these people, but I am afraid that, worded as it is

"as a result of immoral conduct prior to enlistment, during service or after discharge" -it is too -broad, and is subject to the possibility of misinterpretation by returned men. It would also be subject to abuse, if I may say so, either by departmental officers or by a minister who might not see the returned man's point of view in the same way as the present minister might see it.

I am sure the minister must know of cases under the old Pension Act where what I have said would apply. I recall particularly cases in which illegitimate children were involved, and where the chairman of the then pension commission would almost refuse to read the files if anything of that nature was contained in them. My recollection is-and it is quite vivid to-day-that he had a stack of files almost as high as himself sitting in one corner of his room, and he would not even look at them because of the nature of the material they contained. I urge the minister to reconsider this class, or at least to give us some explanation for the present wording.

Topic:   QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS
Subtopic:   VETERANS' INSURANCE
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION OF LIFE INSURANCE FOR VETERANS OF THE PRESENT WAR
Permalink
LIB

Ian Alistair Mackenzie (Minister of Pensions and National Health)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):

There is a good deal of force in what the hon. member has said. Of course he knows as well as I do that we have provisions in the Pension Act which deal with immoral conduct, and of course pensionability is affected. One could not effect what he has suggested in the period prior to enlistment, because we have no control at that time. But what we could do would be to add the words "or refusing treatment for such", and bring about the desired result.

Topic:   QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS
Subtopic:   VETERANS' INSURANCE
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION OF LIFE INSURANCE FOR VETERANS OF THE PRESENT WAR
Permalink

July 27, 1944