July 14, 1944

LIB

Harry Leader

Liberal

Mr. LEADER:

Before this section is carried I should like to offer a few remarks. It is an old subject to many in the house, and I expect there are a number here who think that I am more or less of a nuisance.

Topic:   NATIONAL HEALTH AND WELFARE
Subtopic:   CREATION OF DEPARTMENT FOR MANAGEMENT AND CONTROL OF SOCIAL SECURITY AND WELFARE
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NAT

Gordon Graydon (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. GRAYDON:

Nobody thinks that.

Topic:   NATIONAL HEALTH AND WELFARE
Subtopic:   CREATION OF DEPARTMENT FOR MANAGEMENT AND CONTROL OF SOCIAL SECURITY AND WELFARE
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LIB

Harry Leader

Liberal

Mr. LEADER:

Thank you. I do not believe that individual members think so, but I am not so sure that the government does not consider that I am a nuisance. When I make that statement I include members of the government as individuals; they have the authority, they have the responsibility, and they have not taken any action. It is just one year to-day since this question was brought up in the house.

Topic:   NATIONAL HEALTH AND WELFARE
Subtopic:   CREATION OF DEPARTMENT FOR MANAGEMENT AND CONTROL OF SOCIAL SECURITY AND WELFARE
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LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Prime Minister; Secretary of State for External Affairs; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

May I say to my hon. friend that he has not yet mentioned what the question is to which he refers. He has something very much in his mind, and I sympathize deeply with him in his wish -to discuss it at this time; but when he says that the government thinks he is a nuisance I would tell him that I have always regarded him as quite the opposite, and wish to -thank him for the cooperation he has given me time and again. But I have a duty in connection with the leadership of the house, which is to see that the rules of the house are observed. If, in any way, I should have occasion to interrupt my hon. friend it would simply be to draw attention to the fact that we have before us a bill which deals with the creation of a department of government, and with nothing else. It does not deal with -the question of individual diseases, a subject that would quite properly come up on some other occasion. So far as I am personally concerned, if the committee is agreeable, and I think it is, to allowing my hon. friend latitude to discuss anything he may wish, I am perfectly agreeable -to have him accept that latitude, but I would not like it to be regarded as affording a precedent by other speakers who follow him; and that is the difficulty -I have. The subject which he is bringing up is a very controversial one. I was taken much to task the other day after my hon. friend spoke, as I had said to some hon. members, not to pursue the matter any further by taking exception to what had been

said. The other side was to have been presented on the part of some, but they deferred for that reason. That is the only objection I have.

Topic:   NATIONAL HEALTH AND WELFARE
Subtopic:   CREATION OF DEPARTMENT FOR MANAGEMENT AND CONTROL OF SOCIAL SECURITY AND WELFARE
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LIB

Harry Leader

Liberal

Mr. LEADER:

I thank the Prime Minister for his kind words. It is because of lack of government action, which I am trying to point out, that I feel it is necessary for me to bring this matter before the committee again. I hate to be considered to be even half out of order; I want to obey the regulations of parliament and adhere to the rules in all cases; but I believe this is the proper -time to bring up the subject which is in my mind, namely the investigation of a scientist-some doctors would not call him a scientist-a research worker who has given the best part of his years in research work endeavouring to find a cure for cancer. The man I have in mind is Doctor J. R. Davidson, of 232 Somerset block, Winnipeg. I hope that is definite. You have the subject of the remarks I am now going to make. I hope I am not going to be too long; certainly I do not wish them to be controversial, but if it should happen that they are, I shall try to uphold my end.

As I pointed out when I commenced speaking, it is just one year ago to-day, since this question was first brought up in the House of Commons and no definite action has been taken. There has been some superficial work which has really aggravated more than it has helped the situation. We have heard from one side only, and that is as a result of the superficial investigation which was made by the medical committee of the research council. We have heard nothing with regard to the government's attitude; and because it is so vital to me I have taken it upon my shoulders to acquaint the people of Canada with the true situation, and 10,000 pamphlets have gone out throughout this dominion. I am getting hundreds of letters every day; I know that public opinion is behind me; and I dare to bring a matter up of which I am supposed to have no knowledge.

Just last night I had a telephone call from Windsor. A friend who was operated on for cancer, had been sewed up and for whom nothing could be done, wanted to get the address of J. R. Davidson of Winnipeg. The other day I read a letter from the northern part of Manitoba. I get letters by the hundred from both the western and the eastern parts of Canada; I receive some from England, some from the United States, some even from South America. So that when I make the statement that public opinion is becoming aroused, it is true. Circulars are being sent out from the city of Calgary addressed to ministers of the

Department of Health and Welfare

gospel urging them, if they have at heart the interests of the people of Canada, to back up this request for an investigation.

I am trying to be as temperate as I can, but I want to make my position clear. I said at Portage la Prairie

by the way, my speech was recorded; anyone can hear it, and I expect it is being heard all over this dominion and perhaps beyond it-that the medical committee of the national research council was developing monopolistic tendencies. I wish to prove that statement to-day. I do not want to make a statement and let it go at that; I want to prove what I say.

Topic:   NATIONAL HEALTH AND WELFARE
Subtopic:   CREATION OF DEPARTMENT FOR MANAGEMENT AND CONTROL OF SOCIAL SECURITY AND WELFARE
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LIB

Joseph-Arthur Bradette (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

The CHAIRMAN:

Order. I know the hon. member realizes that I would be the last person to try to curtail any member's speech, and particularly his. However, we are now dealing with a particular clause of the bill, and if we are to open up a general discussion with regard to various matters not related to the bill or to the clause-the national research council and so on-there will be no end to the discussion. It is a definite rule of the committees of the house that speeches should be confined to the subject matter of the clause before the committee.

Topic:   NATIONAL HEALTH AND WELFARE
Subtopic:   CREATION OF DEPARTMENT FOR MANAGEMENT AND CONTROL OF SOCIAL SECURITY AND WELFARE
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LIB

Harry Leader

Liberal

Mr. LEADER:

On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, may I say that I made a statement at Portage la Prairie and I make it here, that the medical committee of the national research council is developing monopolistic tendencies, and I am prepared to prove it. If it is not the wish of the committee that I should do so, I will say no more.

Topic:   NATIONAL HEALTH AND WELFARE
Subtopic:   CREATION OF DEPARTMENT FOR MANAGEMENT AND CONTROL OF SOCIAL SECURITY AND WELFARE
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?

Some hon. MEMBERS:

Go ahead.

Topic:   NATIONAL HEALTH AND WELFARE
Subtopic:   CREATION OF DEPARTMENT FOR MANAGEMENT AND CONTROL OF SOCIAL SECURITY AND WELFARE
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LIB

Joseph-Arthur Bradette (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

The CHAIRMAN:

It is not a question of making a statement. The Chair has to be governed by certain definite rules that are laid down, and if I do not follow those rules I myself shall be open to criticism, and properly so.

Topic:   NATIONAL HEALTH AND WELFARE
Subtopic:   CREATION OF DEPARTMENT FOR MANAGEMENT AND CONTROL OF SOCIAL SECURITY AND WELFARE
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LIB

Harry Leader

Liberal

Mr. LEADER:

May I point out that subsection (b) refers to "investigation and research into public health and welfare." There is not a doubt in my mind, and I hope there is no doubt in any hon. member's mind-I do not think there is a doubt in the Prime Minister's mind-that I am in order. That is the way I feel about it, but I do not want to transgress the rules of the house, and unless I have permission to go on, in the condition I am in today I do not wish to say any more. I do not want your sympathy; we have had too much of that. It takes more than sympathy to cure this disease. I am either in order or out of order, and if you insist that I am out of order I will ask for the decision of the house.

Topic:   NATIONAL HEALTH AND WELFARE
Subtopic:   CREATION OF DEPARTMENT FOR MANAGEMENT AND CONTROL OF SOCIAL SECURITY AND WELFARE
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LIB

Joseph-Arthur Bradette (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

The CHAIRMAN:

I am bound to abide by the rules that are laid down; if I do not

observe those rules I am remiss in my duty. There are other opportunities open to the hon. member. The discussion must be confined to the clause before the committee.

Topic:   NATIONAL HEALTH AND WELFARE
Subtopic:   CREATION OF DEPARTMENT FOR MANAGEMENT AND CONTROL OF SOCIAL SECURITY AND WELFARE
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LIB

John Power Howden

Liberal

Mr. HOWDEN:

May I point out, on the point of order-

Topic:   NATIONAL HEALTH AND WELFARE
Subtopic:   CREATION OF DEPARTMENT FOR MANAGEMENT AND CONTROL OF SOCIAL SECURITY AND WELFARE
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LIB

Joseph-Arthur Bradette (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

The CHAIRMAN:

I have given my decision. If there is-

Topic:   NATIONAL HEALTH AND WELFARE
Subtopic:   CREATION OF DEPARTMENT FOR MANAGEMENT AND CONTROL OF SOCIAL SECURITY AND WELFARE
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LIB

Gerald Grattan McGeer

Liberal

Mr. McGEER:

A point of order oan be argued, and the point is this-

Topic:   NATIONAL HEALTH AND WELFARE
Subtopic:   CREATION OF DEPARTMENT FOR MANAGEMENT AND CONTROL OF SOCIAL SECURITY AND WELFARE
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LIB

Joseph-Arthur Bradette (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

The CHAIRMAN:

I have given my decision.

Topic:   NATIONAL HEALTH AND WELFARE
Subtopic:   CREATION OF DEPARTMENT FOR MANAGEMENT AND CONTROL OF SOCIAL SECURITY AND WELFARE
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IND

Alan Webster Neill

Independent

Mr. NEILL:

It is customary to allow members to express an opinion before a decision is given, and I would like your permission, Mr. Chairman, to make a few remarks on the point of order.

Topic:   NATIONAL HEALTH AND WELFARE
Subtopic:   CREATION OF DEPARTMENT FOR MANAGEMENT AND CONTROL OF SOCIAL SECURITY AND WELFARE
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LIB

Joseph-Arthur Bradette (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

The CHAIRMAN:

I have given my decision. There are rules that I must abide by. If we do not observe the rules, then we leave the discussion wide open.

Topic:   NATIONAL HEALTH AND WELFARE
Subtopic:   CREATION OF DEPARTMENT FOR MANAGEMENT AND CONTROL OF SOCIAL SECURITY AND WELFARE
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IND

Alan Webster Neill

Independent

Mr. NEILL:

It is the established custom in this house to allow any member to discuss a point of order, but you gave your decision in this instance first and refused to allow anyone to discuss the point of order. That is not fair and is against the rules of the house.

Topic:   NATIONAL HEALTH AND WELFARE
Subtopic:   CREATION OF DEPARTMENT FOR MANAGEMENT AND CONTROL OF SOCIAL SECURITY AND WELFARE
Permalink
LIB

Joseph-Arthur Bradette (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

The CHAIRMAN:

I did not think any member wanted to speak to the point of order.

Topic:   NATIONAL HEALTH AND WELFARE
Subtopic:   CREATION OF DEPARTMENT FOR MANAGEMENT AND CONTROL OF SOCIAL SECURITY AND WELFARE
Permalink
IND

Alan Webster Neill

Independent

Mr. NEILL:

I did.

Topic:   NATIONAL HEALTH AND WELFARE
Subtopic:   CREATION OF DEPARTMENT FOR MANAGEMENT AND CONTROL OF SOCIAL SECURITY AND WELFARE
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July 14, 1944