July 3, 1944

?

Some hon. MEMBERS:

Oh, oh.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

All the speeches made so far in this debate have been read.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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LIB

Walter Adam Tucker

Liberal

Mr. TUCKER:

All I would say to that is this: I am not as skilful at reading my speeches as is the leader of the C.C.F. party, and his followers. I have not been doing it for so long.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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?

Leslie Gordon Bell

Mr. COLD WELL:

That is evident.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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LIB

Walter Adam Tucker

Liberal

Mr. TUCKER:

If they can do it, I think I can. I wished to-day to take up as little time as possible, by putting what I had to say in as concise language as possible.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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LIB

Thomas Vien (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER:

In previous years I have referred to the practice of reading speeches which has grown up in the house. Where ministers have read their speeches a certain amount of latitude has been given, because it is understood that they are stating policy. In that circumstance, latitude was given. However, that was not applied to other hon. members. During this debate I had not noticed any great amount of reading, with the exception perhaps, of the hon. member for York-Sunbury (Mr. Hanson) who stayed with his notes more than he should have done to-day.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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LIB

Ian Alistair Mackenzie (Minister of Pensions and National Health)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):

He read every word of it.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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LIB

Thomas Vien (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER:

The hon. member who is now speaking has been reading, a procedure which as already pointed out, is contrary to the rules.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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LIB

Gerald Grattan McGeer

Liberal

Mr. McGEER:

On the point of order, it seems to me the time has come to revise that rule. You see, it does not make much

difference what a member says in the house, or whether he knows much about his subject. He would probably be able to get someone to write a speech for him, and that person might write a much better one than he could wrrite himself. But when one of the ministers is privileged to rise in his place and read something that is written for him, that is a different matter altogether. The ministers of the government ought to know enough about the subjects they discuss to be able to speak on them. It seems to me that it is a violation of all the rules of parliamentary procedure to permit seniors to read and to deny the same privilege to juniors. I do not think anyone should read his speech, and I think that ought to include ministers as well as private members.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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LIB

Thomas Vien (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER:

I have nothing further to add. The provision has been accepted by the house that a certain amount of latitude be allowed the ministers. That is a provision with which I entirely agree. If a minister wishes to read, in the circumstances I have indicated, the practice has been that he do so. But when hon. members speaking on their own behalf read their speeches, as the hon. member has been doing, they are breaking the rules of the house. And, since the question has been raised, I must ask that the rules be complied with.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

Speaking to the point of order, I have been listening to this debate since the beginning of it, and there has been only one member who has not read his speech. That was the hon. member for Cape Breton South (Mr. Gillis). Every other hon. member who has spoken has read his speech, whether he was a minister, or whatever he was. I suggest that at least we ought to continue what we have started, until the hon. member who is now speaking has completed his speech.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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SC

Norman Jaques

Social Credit

Mr. JAQUES:

On the point of order, I agree entirely with the hon. member for Rosthern (Mr. Tucker). We who sit in the body of the house, Mr. Speaker, can see what Your Honour cannot see from your seat. What the hon. member for Rosthern has said is perfectly true. I would suggest that perhaps the majority of speeches delivered in this house are read.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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?

An hon. MEMBER:

Speak for yourself.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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SC

Norman Jaques

Social Credit

Mr. JAQUES:

I have never done it. I have never acquired the skill to do it. But it is a fact, and I agree with the statement made by the hon. member for Rosthern. Perhaps it is not done in committee, but in formal debate many speeches are read.

The Budget-Mr. Tucker

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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LIB

Thomas Vien (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER:

I have ruled already as to the practice and custom of the house.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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LIB

Walter Adam Tucker

Liberal

Mr. TUCKER:

I made up my mind that on this occasion I would follow the precedent established by all members of the C.C.F. who have read their speeches ever since they came here or at least for the past two or three years. I watched the leader of the C.C.F. read the speech he made in this debate, and I decided that if that were going to be done by the C.C.F. party and by the leader of the C.C.F. party, I had as many rights as the leader of the C.C.F. party and that if he were to be permitted to read his speech, I could read mine. It is the first time in my life I have read a speech in this house. If I am to De called to order for reading my speech then 1 insist that the members of the C.C.F. party be made to deliver their speeches and not read them. Just because they can hold them far off and follow them with their finger is no excuse. I watched the leader of the C.C.F. party following his speech the other day with his finger, and now we are greeted with the spectacle of one of his followers raising a point of order because I am reading a speech, something which I have never done before. I refuse to use any subterfuge. I was following my notes; I was reading my speech, but I read it on purpose partly, I may say, with the thought in mind that if objection were made it would bring this matter to a head. I am going to ask that the C.C.F. members be made to deliver their speeches in future without reading them.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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LIB

Thomas Reid

Liberal

Mr. REID:

The point of order was raised in order to spoil your speech.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink
LIB

Walter Adam Tucker

Liberal

Mr. TUCKER:

So far as the situation confronting this country to-day is concerned, we have the alternative of the Liberal party which proposes to go ahead and provide the economic security which the country is willing to support by taxation. It is going to base that economic security upon world trade, which is the only sound basis for it in the long run. I have pointed out already that the C.C.F. party are making promises that they will raise wages. If they raige wages, they will raise the cost of production of the goods made in this country. That will raise further the cost of production of the farmers. By action of import and export boards, imports then will be excluded, and the result will be that other countries will be unable to buy our exports. That will do more to destroy the economic production of this country than high tariffs ever did.

They will destroy our exports, and then they turn around and say that they are going to buy those products from the farmers at

higher prices. They are holding out that inducement. That is the situation; that is the phoney policy which is being put up to our farmers. They are going to raise wages, which of necessity will raise the cost of production of the farmer. Then in the next breath they say that they are going to promote industry by protecting the production of industry by import boards. This will exclude imports from coming into our country, and then what will happen to the production of the farmers?

I suggest that the inevitable result will be the establishment of a self-contained economy in Canada. We, of all countries, depend most upon exports, upon what we can sell other nations, and yet here is a programme to set up a self-contained economy. If they do not intend to set up a self-contained economy they cannot possibly raise the .cost of production in this country by raising wages. If the cost of production is raised of everything the farmer produces, how can he be expected to compete in the markets of the world? Therefore they must intend to subsidize the farming industry and, in doing that, they will have to tax heavily. As I pointed out, these taxes will of necessity fall upon those who are left to run their own affairs, those in receipt of incomes. It will simply mean that the farmer will have his markets destroyed and that all he will have will be the promise of higher prices for the things he will not be able to sell, to be paid by himself in higher taxes. These products will simply pile up. A situation based upon such plans is bound to collapse.

It is on that basis that they have gone throughout this country holding out the hope of higher wages and higher pay to everybody who works, holding out the hope of higher rewards to the farmers and everybody else. They know very well that to carry out their promises Canada would have to reorganize her whole economic set-up on a self-contained basis. It would mean the replacing of at least three-quarters of our farmers in other work which they would not be able to do as well as what they are now doing. That is the fallacious system upon which the C.C.F. policy is based.

So far as I am concerned, I believe that the Liberal party will reestablish the returned soldier as well, if not better than any other country. I believe that we have a leader who has the admiration of every other leader in the whole world. He will be able to make a great contribution to establishing an international system which will guarantee the winning of a peace that will be just and lasting.

The Budget-Mr. Tucker

Our present programme is one which aims at the establishment of the greatest possible measure of trade between the nations of the world. That is of more importance to Canada than it is to any other nation. It would be a tremendous and terrible mistake for our people at this stage to elect to power a party which believes that you can somehow establish a self-contained economy without rearranging the economic structure of our people.

Canada is going to occupy an important position at the peace conference. She will be one of the British commonwealth of nations; she is a nation on the American continent and will have a great influence upon the attitude the United States will take. Canada is in an influential position in regard to any attitude she may adopt. If we put into power a party that believes in a self-contained economy, a socialist economy, we .shall have to get away from freer trade; we -shall have a self-contained economy, the very thing that helped produce this war. In spite of all that, we have the C.C.F. party pretending that their policy will lead to an era of greater peace. I submit that their policy of a self-contained economy is one of the basic reasons for the outbreak of this war. That is one of the things that helped to put Hitler in power; it is one of the things that helped to bring about the present war.

They are proposing that Canada which must depend upon world trade should embark upon the setting up of a self-contained economy. The adoption of such a policy would be one thing that would help to destroy individual freedom in this country. Are they prepared to reorganize our people, to transfer perhaps three-quarters or two-thirds of our farmers to other industries? A number of countries in Europe endeavoured to be self-contained, and the adoption of that principle led to all the controls and interference by government officials we do not like in this country.

The issue which lies before this country in the near future is whether we want greater prosperity with more individual liberty or less prosperity with more bureaucratic control by the state; more in the way of self-contained economy and less in the way of well-being for our people. That is the great issue that will be put before the country.

The C.C.E. are to-day rejoicing in their measure of success in Saskatchewan, but 1 think in the near future the people of Canada, not only those of Saskatchewan and Ontario, once the issue is clear will adopt a policy by which Canada will once more be one of a family of friendly nations, one of a family

which is willing to live and let live and to provide the greatest measure of freedom to its people and the greatest possible measure of social and economic security as great as the world has ever seen.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink
SC

Robert Fair

Social Credit

Mr. ROBERT FAIR (Battle River):

Mr. Speaker, in rising to speak on the sixth war budget I feel that I am starting out at quite a disadvantage, because my speech like all the others I have given here is not written, nor is anything I am going to say imported. My words will be entirely my own and based on experience. So that if my speech is not up to the high standard maintained so far, do not blame me because I am doing my best.

I feel it my first duty to pay tribute to the men and women who have gone overseas to fight our battles over there and to express to the relatives and friends of those who have fallen or been seriously injured my deepest sympathy. Having done that, I turn my thoughts for a little while to the budget.

Like a good many others who listened to or read the budget speech of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Ilsley), I am quite disappointed in it. We were looking for great things and we have got great things in some directions, but I am sorry to say, not in the right direction. The minister has on previous occasions referred to the revenues - of this country, and we must, of course, give him credit for being a very good collector, or at least a very good suggester for the other fellow to do the collecting.

I should like to refer for a moment to the $813,000,000 of personal income tax collections. I am not in opposition to the principle of personal income tax, but I feel that it is not administered just as well and as equitably as it should be. For that reason I am opposed to the income tax as proposed in this budget. I feel that those in the lower income brackets should be relieved of much of their taxation, and I am also in favour of the compulsory savings portion of the income tax which has hitherto been in effect being continued if certain amounts of revenue have to be raised. I believe that it would be much better to maintain the compulsory savings feature and alleviate the income tax on the lower income groups. I believe that that would be much sounder and that it would accomplish the minister's ends much better.

I also believe that in the interests of this country income tax on pay for overtime should be abolished. When people work overtime they are entitled to a little breathing space so far as income tax is concerned, and with the country needing extra production the minister would be well advised to drop the income tax on overtime earnings.

The Budget-Mr. Fair

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink
LIB

James Lorimer Ilsley (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Liberal

Mr. ILSLEY:

May I ask the hon. gentleman a question? If overtime were relieved from taxation, would he suggest that the money that the farmer earned because of overtime work be also freed from taxation, and, if so, how?

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
Sub-subtopic:   DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink

July 3, 1944