Mr. LaFLECHE: It was not necessary. It depends upon the approach. One cannot legislate men into doing good and one cannot legislate them into being efficient. But the civil servants in Ottawa, if properly appealed to, have always without fail responded in the right way; and they have done so, moreover, in the case of the economies control.
That may be the position now. But the position last year was that practically all government departments were subject to this order in council with the exception of the wartime information board, and perhaps one or two other boards. Has any change been made in the order in council in. the interim?
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Mr. LaFLECHE: I said earlier that no
change has been made in the order in council. Mr. Murphy has been able to interest people in all of the departments.
As I understand it, Mr. Murphy is lent to the office of economies control. If that is not so, how else does it work? It seems to me we are, as it were, getting the shadow here, not the substance. If Mr. Murphy is devoting his time to this work and receiving his salary from some other department, then I think that an adjustment should be made and he should be reasonably remunerated under the particular item which covers this office. I agree with the minister that you can get more out of people by cooperation than you can by endeavouring to drive them to something. If, as I think the minister has suggested, Mr. Murphy is trying to do this work after hours, then surely he cannot be giving very much attention to it even in order to get the cooperation of the civil servants involved. Of course the staff is comparatively small when one takes into consideration the billions of dollars that we are spending. I wonder how he can possibly do this job after hours, even to get the cooperation of the civil servants.
Mr. LaFLECHE: Mr. Murphy is a permanent civil servant and works in the Post Office Department. I think he has had forty-one years' service. When I spoke to Mr. Murphy about the possibilities of his coming over to economies control, because I had known of the excellent work of the same kind he had done in the Post Office Department, he undertook to come over when he could. He comes regularly in the morning. He does his work in his own department when he can.
In other words, the Post Office Department is practically lending him.
Mr. LaFLECHE: I am very grateful to my colleague, the Postmaster General, for permitting Mr. Murphy to come and get this work going, and for the spirit that he has put into it. It is not particularly hard work when everybody wants to do the same thing. There is a difference between driving and all marching together in the same spirit.
I have a matter that I should like to bring to the attention of the minister. In 1941 there was in his department an item which amounted to the sum of $50,000. It was a revolving fund in connection with an organization known as the civilian technical corps. All the expenditures made from the fund were supposed to be guaranteed by the United Kingdom. There was spent from this fund in the year 1941A2 the sum of $27,000. It was
not recovered when the auditor general made his report in 1943. A further sum of $7,833 was spent in 1943. Would the minister give a short statement showing the position of this revolving fund at the present time, and what reason could be advanced for the United Kingdom not meeting the amount which had been debited to them?
Mr. LaFLECHE: The civilian technical corps came into being at the request of the British government before the United States entered the war. It was felt that a great many qualified technical Americans would be very happy to go to the British isles and serve there in undertakings requiring technical knowledge and experience. The organization was not a Canadian one. It was a United Kingdom establishment. It was placed under my department nominally. It was in Montreal under the direct supervision of the United Kingdom air mission, I believe.
The Canadian government advanced the moneys and periodically the Canadian government was reimbursed for expenditures made. I do not recall the exact standing of the account as of March 31, 1943; but I know the entire account has been paid. Thehon. member has asked, why the delay? Well, it was in putting in the bills and latterly getting them sent over to Great Britain, I understand, for final approval, or something like that. It was a revolving fund. The Canadian government has been reimbursed in full. When the United States came into the war that organization had, of course, to go out.
When the minister's estimates were under discussion on the last occasion he promised to bring down a statement showing the number of men taking educational courses in the pension and health hospitals of Canada. Could the minister give us a statement to-night?
Mr. LaFLECHE: I had hoped to begin this afternoon by giving my hon. friend the information, but in the hurly-burly an hon. member rose and I was not able to do so. It will
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take me fifteen minutes to give it. If the committee wishes to go on to something else I can do it at some other time.
I have made very careful inquiries, and the statement I am about to give reflects what I found after consultation with departmental officials. During the discussion of Canadian Legion educational services estimates on Monday, April 24, and again on the 27th, the hon. member for Vancouver South inquired as to what extent it is possible for a man in hospital to -take advantage of Canadian Legion educational services. Since that time I have caused inquiries to be made of the department concerned and have been assured that any patient in a Department of Pensions and National Health hospital may, subject to the approval of the responsible medical officer, commence or resume a suitable course offered by Canadian Legion educational services or commence a more suitable course with an approved correspondence school, and such instruction will, in so far as possible, be directly related to the individual's post-war occupation and any necessary training or education under the rehabilitation programme. These legion courses are reported upon favourably by medical and administrative officers of -the department and it is the intention to give further expansion of such . courses every encouragement.
I should like to add that at present -there are available a series of manuals on arts and handicrafts especially designed to give simple practical information, so that service personnel may learn a useful and interesting handicraft without -the aid of an instructor. Manuals which are now in print in both English and French include: woodwork, leathercraft, knitting and needlecraft, wood carving, metalcraft, rugmaking and fibre craft, weaving, photography and handicraft designing, water-colour -painting, sketching with oil paints and drawing. In addition to the handicraft manuals, there is a series of manuals designed to assist service -personnel in the intelligent choice of their post-war vocation. The first manual in this series is entitled, "How to Choose your Post-War Job," which provides the service man with clear but concise guidance on what sort of jobs are available and what abilities are required to obtain these jobs, together with information as to how he may prepare himself for -the particular job he has in mind.
To assist service personnel to procure further information a series of fifty manuals are either printed or in press or are being prepared for press by experts in each particular occupational field. I should like permission to place on Hansard a list of fifty manuals, or is it desired that I should read them? May I place them on Hansard without reading them?
40. Engineering-chemical, civil, metallurgical, mechanical, architectural, et cetera.
42. Scientific agricultural and veterinary
45. Household science.
46. Stationary engineering.
47. Police and fire services.
48. Undertaking and embalming.
49. Pottery work
brick and tile, clay and
50. Personnel work.
It is felt that these manuals, covering us they do the history of the job and the nature of the work, the qualifications required, the training for the occupation, the opportunities for employment, the possibilities of advancement and the compensation, will be invaluable in connection with assisting service personnel with their study of occupations. Hon. members will be interested to know something of the very great care which has
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been taken in the preparation of these manuals. I should like, therefore, to mention a few of the titles, also the authors, as follows:
"How to Choose Your Job"-E. F. Sheffield, registrar and vocational counsellor, Sir George Williams College, Montreal.
"Accountancy and Bookkeeping"-Mr. Hilmer, commercial teacher in the Stamford Collegiate, Ontario.
"Engineering"-Being prepared by The Engineering Institute of Canada.
"Building Trades"-The Director of Apprenticeship, Department of Labour, Ontario.
"Graphic Arts"-Prepared by the executive secretary of the Toronto Graphic Arts Association.
Hr. Grace Hood, head of the Home Economics Department, University of Manitoba.
"The Ceramic Industries"-Professor R. J. Montgomery, University of Toronto, Dept, of Ceramics.
Three books on Agriculture-Being prepared by officials of the federal Department of Agriculture, through the Canadian Association of Technical Agriculturists.
"Automotive Repairing and Garages"-Being prepared by The Ontario Garage Operators' Association.
"Machinists"-Prepared by E. Slade, teacher, Western Technical Commercial School, Toronto.
A. E. Wall, secured under the supervision of the Canadian Life Underwriters' Association.
"Social Services"-Prepared by the Montreal School of Social Work.
"Homemaking"-Mrs. D. S. Rawson, Saskatoon.
Major D. Hallam of the Textile Institute of Canada.
"Wholesale and Retail Trade Distribution"
Mr. G. S. Hougham, secretary, National Retailers' Association.
Dr. Moffatt, Civil Service Commission, Ottawa.
"Bartering and Beauty Culture"-By Director of Apprenticeship, Ontario.
"Meat Packing"-Being prepared by Swift Canadian Company.
"Personnel Work"-Being prepared by the personnel division of the Massey Harris Company Limited.
Has the minister figures showing how many men have taken these courses in the pensions and national health hospitals?
Mr. LaFLECHE: I have not the final figures as to the total number of men in these hospitals taking these courses, but that information is being obtained for me and I shall pass it on later, if I may.
I think the hon. member for Vancouver South will find this of some interest. The hon. member for Hastings-Peterborough, on Monday last, the 24th of April, inquired as to
the number of certificates issued by Canadian Legion educational services. I might explain that three types of certificates are issued:
1. Certificate for correspondence course completion.
2. Certificate for partial completion of correspondence courses.
3. Certificate of achievement.
1. In this connection I should like to indicate to the committee the procedure which has been set down in order that students may qualify for these certificates. The student studies his booklets and forwards exercises to his correspondence instructor as he completes them. While his first exercise is being marked by the instructor, the student continues with paper No. 2 in order that no time may be wasted. The exercise is marked and is returned to the student, together with necessary explanations and additional instructions as to how he should procure the maximum advantage from the correspondence system of study. When the student has completed the ten papers, that is half a course, an examination is forwarded to the commanding officer who ensures that the man writes it under supervision. It is then returned to the correspondence instructor by the education officer. A similar procedure is following with the remaining ten papers and a final test is sent to him through the commanding officer on the completion of the twentieth paper. This again is written under supervision and is returned to the correspondence instructor. In all these exercises and examinations the standards of provincial departments of education are maintained. The marks gained on each of the twenty papers, plus those gained on the two supervised examinations, are averaged and the student is awarded the certificate which carries academic credit for the subject studied in all departments of education in Canada and Newfoundland.
In addition to this, the standing granted is indicated on sections 4 and 5 of his application form. Section 4 is forwarded to the officer in charge of records at national defence headquarters in Ottawa in order that it may be affixed to his permanent service records here, and section 5 is forwarded to the officer in charge of his unit in order that it may be attached to his unit papers. In this way commanding officers are made aware of the names of service personnel who are interested in advancing their own welfare. Other things being equal, we have no doubt that these are the personnel who will be chosen for whatever promotions will be available.
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2. Certificates of partial completion are issued to students who are not primarily interested in academic credit at the present time but who, at a later date, may wish to continue their correspondence studies when the exigencies of the services so permit. In such cases a certificate of partial completion, showing the marks gained on the work actually done, is awarded in order that the student may continue his course with no difficulty at all on the production of the certificate of partial completion.
3. Certificates of achievement are also issued for work done in Canadian Legion educational services classes. These certificates may be evaluated for academic credit in the cases where the duration of the instruction and subjects covered are acceptable to provincial departments of education, but generally they are issued for non-credit purposes. For
example, men who have studied the very elementary English course and have achieved a certain literacy in English are very proud to have their achievement recorded on certificates of this type.
Again, many service personnel make use of these classes as refresher courses and as courses to provide them with sufficient background to accept promotion within the services.
I have a table showing the number of certificates issued. It covers a full page, and with the permission of the committee I should like to place it on the record.