Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):

I should like to ask the minister why a major portion of the power is going to the United States, and just what is the executive authority to enter into an agreement of this nature without the consent of parliament.

Mr. ST. LAURENT: There is no agreement entered into by this government with the government of the United States with respect to the use of power. As a matter of fact the power is developed by the Ontario hydro-electric power commission. It has export permits for power-not continuous power, but power that is not being used on the Canadian side.

Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):

For off-peak load.

Mr. ST. LAURENT: The situation on the American side is that they have steam plants wherein they produce power by the use of coal; but they can at any time use whatever electrical energy is available, and thus conserve coal. Under the arrangements evidenced by the notes, the government of the United States will make no objection to the diversion of 4,000 additional cubic feet per second of water which will flow through the machines of the Ontario hydro-electric power commission.

Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):

And they get the power.

Mr. ST. LAURENT: It will make the power available, and if it is in excess of what is actually being used on the Canadian side it will be absorbed in the boilers on the American side. The only pecuniary or financial interest of the federal government is in the fees paid for the export permits on the measured quantity of power that goes out.

Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):

That is only a bagatelle.

Mr. ST. LAURENT: That is only a bagatelle. Whatever financial benefit there is will be derived by the Ontario hydro-electric power commission as vendors of the power not actually in use on this side.

Mr. MacNICOL:

I am glad to notice that the minister seems to know a great deal about diversions. Is this 4,000 cubic feet per second in addition to the previous 5,000 cubic feet

Private Bills

per second allowed the Ontario hydro-electric power commission as a result of the diversion of waters from the Ogoki river?

Mr. ST. LAURENT: It is in addition to the quantity already being used by the hydroelectric development to compensate for additional water brought from the Hudson bay basin to the great lakes basin.

Mr. MacNICOL:

Before we were allowed to divert that, we permitted the United States to divert an additional 5,000 cubic feet, so that they are going to get 5,000 and 4,000 cubic feet?

Mr. ST. LAURENT: They will not get an additional diversion. The additional diversion will flow through. the hydro-electric plant on the Canadian side.

Mr. MacNICOL:

That is the 4,000 cubic feet per second?

Mr. ST. LAURENT: Out of that they will get such power as is not absorbed by whatever load the hydro in Ontario may have on its system. They get this, sometimes for very short periods and sometimes for longer periods. When I say "very short periods" I refer to the fact that during the lunch hour they would get power not being required for the operation of the Toronto tramways system. That off-peak power flows into the boilers and saves other fuel.

Mr. GRAYDON:

We ought to have an explanation.

Mr. REID:

This bill arises out of an agreement entered into between the Vancouver, Victoria and Eastern Railway and Navigation Company and the Nelson and Fort Sheppard Railway Company and Great Northern Railway Company. The Vancouver, Victoria and Eastern Railway and Navigation Company and the Nelson and Fort Sheppard Railway Company were set up under provincial charters long years ago. Following that they were declared to be works for the general advantage of Canada and so came under dominion statutes or regulations of the federal parliament. That was back in 1893 and 1897.

Following that the Great Northern Railway Company obtained a ninety-nine year lease from both these other railroad companies, as well as some running rights over the Canadian National and Canadian Pacific railways. Later on they acquired and now own all the shares of both the first mentioned railroads. The bill proposes to ratify the leases and to allow the Great Northern Railway Company the right to effect total ownership. The bill also provides for an agreement covering running rights over some small sections of railroad belonging to the Canadian National and Canadian Pacific Railways.

Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.