May 8, 1944

SC

John Horne Blackmore

Social Credit

Mr. BLACKMORE:

They needed more

money.

Topic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   CONDITIONS GOVERNING TEN-YEAR EXTENSION OF BANK CHARTERS
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LPP

Fred Rose

Labour Progressive

Mr. ROSE:

Just a moment.

Topic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   CONDITIONS GOVERNING TEN-YEAR EXTENSION OF BANK CHARTERS
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SC

Charles Edward Johnston

Social Credit

Mr. JOHNSTON (Bow River):

You are getting in a bad spot.

Topic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   CONDITIONS GOVERNING TEN-YEAR EXTENSION OF BANK CHARTERS
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LPP

Fred Rose

Labour Progressive

Mr. ROSE:

No, I am not. The people could not buy because there was no work anywhere. There were no international markets.

Topic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   CONDITIONS GOVERNING TEN-YEAR EXTENSION OF BANK CHARTERS
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SC

John Horne Blackmore

Social Credit

Mr. BLACKMORE:

They had no money.

Topic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   CONDITIONS GOVERNING TEN-YEAR EXTENSION OF BANK CHARTERS
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LPP

Fred Rose

Labour Progressive

Mr. ROSE:

I shall come to that. There was nothing. They had no work at home. I would agree with a number of speakers who put the issue squarely before the house. They said that we must have jobs. I agree. We must have jobs guaranteed to everybody after the war. That is problem No. 1. The workers say: "Give me a job." The worker does not give a hoot where the money comes from. He does not care whether it comes from a private bank or from a central bank. He wants a job and he wants it at decent wages. That is

Bank Act-Mr. Rose

problem No. 1. Let us not try to run away from that problem by finding some magic solution, by playing around with money, paper money or any other money.

We come now to problem No. 2. One of the hon. members used the phrase, "Nationalization of banks"; another hon. member used the phrase, " Socialization of banks." Let us not play with phrases. On the basis of those phrases people are supposed to stand up and vote. When I did not stand up to vote a neighbour to my right turned to me and said in effect, "What has happened to you?" I am no abstract dogmatist. I contend that jobs come first, and that is the big problem. To use the issue of socialization of banks at this time is all wrong when the vast majority of the Canadian people have indicated by a recent Gallup poll that they are not willing to accept such banks.

The key issue at the present stage of the war is not to play into the hands of those who want to make an issue of socialism in order to oppose reform. Let us stand up for reform in this house; let us collaborate. That is the issue to place before the people. The issue is not socialism or the socialization and nationalization of banks; it is a question of reform.

Topic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   CONDITIONS GOVERNING TEN-YEAR EXTENSION OF BANK CHARTERS
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?

An hon. MEMBER:

Is that not a reform?

Topic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   CONDITIONS GOVERNING TEN-YEAR EXTENSION OF BANK CHARTERS
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LPP

Fred Rose

Labour Progressive

Mr. ROSE:

That is a drastic one. The Labour party of Great Britain have been speaking of the nationalization of mines for how many years? They have still to nationalize the mines. I would say that the problem of the socialization of banks is somewhat similar to the nationalization of mines as it was promised by the British Labour party. The fact is that they have not gone very far.

Reference has been made to New Zealand. That country does not have a very highly developed capitalist system. It has a population of about a million and a half people. They have not as yet nationalized the banks' and the fact that some of the people there are saying that they will do something does not mean that they will. Let us be realistic about the problems.

If there is something wrong with bill No. 91, I should like to see my hon. friends of the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation show where improvements can be made. That would be a much healthier approach to the problem. Instead of talking about farm loans, we should have a bank for agricultural loans. If that were suggested, I would be one of the first to vote with my hon. friends to my right. If they will bring forward a concrete proposal in connection with the industrial bank I will support it. In that bill on the industrial bank it is suggested that loans will be given to shipbuilders, but I do not consider 100-173

them as being small industrialists. Loans should be available for small storekeepers. It should be possible for men in the army to come back and open up little stores. I would be 100 per cent for that. I have heard nothing said about how these men will be able to get easier credit. To put out propaganda slogans about socialization of banks at this time will in the long run tend to divide the people.

Some will say where are you to get the jobs? I admit it is going to be a hard problem. Others will ask, where will you sell the goods? I should like to refer to a clipping which I had in my office.

Topic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   CONDITIONS GOVERNING TEN-YEAR EXTENSION OF BANK CHARTERS
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An hon. MEMBER:

What is it, more propaganda?

Topic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   CONDITIONS GOVERNING TEN-YEAR EXTENSION OF BANK CHARTERS
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LPP

Fred Rose

Labour Progressive

Mr. ROSE:

It is much more realistic than talk of easy money. This clipping is from the Montreal Gazette of Saturday, and it contains a story written to the New York Times by C. Daniel, pointing out that the United States bank had underwritten 2\ billion of goods to be sold to the Soviet Union. That is a lot of money. I believe that the yearly total of United States exports before the war were valued at about S3 billion, and here are 2\ billion being underwritten by private banks to one country. If they want to do that, let them go ahead.

Topic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   CONDITIONS GOVERNING TEN-YEAR EXTENSION OF BANK CHARTERS
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CCF

Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. DOUGLAS (Weybum):

Who is

guaranteeing it? It is the working people of the United States.

Topic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   CONDITIONS GOVERNING TEN-YEAR EXTENSION OF BANK CHARTERS
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LPP

Fred Rose

Labour Progressive

Mr. ROSE:

Have you any objection? It is the men who will get the jobs and they have no objection.

Topic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   CONDITIONS GOVERNING TEN-YEAR EXTENSION OF BANK CHARTERS
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CCF

Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. DOUGLAS (Weybum):

I object to your giving credit 'to the banks under this new party line.

Topic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   CONDITIONS GOVERNING TEN-YEAR EXTENSION OF BANK CHARTERS
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LPP

Fred Rose

Labour Progressive

Mr. ROSE:

The party line is a different problem and we will discuss that later. The article says that the British are also interested. Where do we come in? Here is what War and the Working Class, a Soviet journal, has to say:

Trade with the Soviet Union can doubtlessly be profitable for England, the United States, Canada and other countries.

Yes; we can do something. I need not mention only the Soviet Union. What about China? Let us help to industrialize China. There was a labour representative from India at the International Labour Office convention at Philadelphia. He said, "Help us to industrialize ourselves; help us to gain freedom, and you will see what it will mean to you from the point of view of work for your people." Let us be realistic; let us not run away on the question of the issue of money.

Bank Act-Mr. Rose

I do not vote on the basis of catch-phrases or propaganda slogans; I vote on the basis of what is realistic. If there were an amendment that would bring about improvements, I would be in favour of it, but when you talk only of socialized banks or national banks I am not prepared to vote.

Topic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   CONDITIONS GOVERNING TEN-YEAR EXTENSION OF BANK CHARTERS
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An hon. MEMBER:

What is your alternative?

Topic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   CONDITIONS GOVERNING TEN-YEAR EXTENSION OF BANK CHARTERS
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LPP

Fred Rose

Labour Progressive

Mr. ROSE:

If the bankers want to carry-on, let them carry on. But if they fail, let the government step in. The government has started with an industrial bank and we should have other similar banks to make credit easier in order that the people may carry on. That is a problem. If private enterprise fails, let the government step in. The government should not be merely a passive by-stander. The people are not prepared for socialization of banks at this time, and they can be scared by slogans used by reactionaries and be turned against those who mean well. People like Gladstone Murray- and others can still turn the people against those who may mean well, and the result will be that the people will go to the other extreme.

I did not vote either for or against the subamendment because I could not understand this sudden wedding of two parties. The one had just got up and attacked socialism while the other wanted socialism. If it is merely a question of opposition for the sake of opposition, then I say that is not in the best interests of the people at the present time, nor is it in the best interests of the people in the near luture.

Topic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   CONDITIONS GOVERNING TEN-YEAR EXTENSION OF BANK CHARTERS
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SC

Ernest George Hansell

Social Credit

Mr. E. G. HAXSELL (Macleod):

Mr. Speaker, it is refreshing to know that the Liberal party are gaining some support.

Topic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   CONDITIONS GOVERNING TEN-YEAR EXTENSION OF BANK CHARTERS
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LPP

Fred Rose

Labour Progressive

Mr. ROSE:

Why- should the Conservative party have a monopoly?

Topic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   CONDITIONS GOVERNING TEN-YEAR EXTENSION OF BANK CHARTERS
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CCF

Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):

Also the banking monopoly.

Topic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   CONDITIONS GOVERNING TEN-YEAR EXTENSION OF BANK CHARTERS
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SC

Ernest George Hansell

Social Credit

Mr. HANSELL:

The hon. member for Wey-burn says, "Also the banking monopoly". I had not intended speaking to-night and many of us seem to be riding in the same boat. This debate which promised to be lengthy is apparently on the verge of folding up. I was not rushing myself in preparing for this, thinking there would be other long-winded speakers desiring to speak between now and the end of the week, and I would, therefore, have plenty of time to gather my notes together. But here I am having to explain myself extemporaneously with a few little pieces of scrap notes.

I feel it is necessary for me to say something before the amendment is voted on. I should

like to say something which my hon. friend who has just preceded me may think rather illogical. To all intents and purposes I do not believe in nationalism, but I am going to vote with my hon. friends of the Cooperative Commonw-ealth Federation. I think it was the speech of the hon. member for Weyburn that convinced me that he was gradually-becoming a pretty- good social crediter.

Topic:   BANK ACT AMENDMENT
Subtopic:   CONDITIONS GOVERNING TEN-YEAR EXTENSION OF BANK CHARTERS
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May 8, 1944