March 13, 1944

CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. KNOWLES:

If I may not speak to the point of order, Mr. Speaker, I take it that I may continue with my remarks on the subject which I raised?

Topic:   PENSIONS-OLD AGE AND BLIND-AMENDMENT, MR. KNOWLES
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LIB

Thomas Vien (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER:

I have already decided that the hon. member is discussing a matter which cannot be debated on the motion to go into supply. It is a matter which can be discussed when the proper item in the estimates is before the committee. At that time it can be gone into fully, but in the meantime it is not a proper amendment and I have therefore ruled it out of order.

Topic:   PENSIONS-OLD AGE AND BLIND-AMENDMENT, MR. KNOWLES
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CCF

Major James William Coldwell

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. COLDWELL:

Do I understand you, Mr. Speaker, to rule that the discussion of old age pensions is out of order? Before you rule on the point I have just raised may I direct your attention to the fact that when the

estimates are before the committee there is no opportunity to revise or change them. It seems to me that at the moment hon. members are trying to bring to the attention of the government the necessity of doing something in regard to the estimates; and while there is an item in the estimates covering old age pensions, surely the discussion of that subject is not out of order because of that fact. If that is so there is almost nothing that could be discussed on going into supply.

Topic:   PENSIONS-OLD AGE AND BLIND-AMENDMENT, MR. KNOWLES
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LIB

Thomas Vien (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER:

Many matters are relevant on going into supply, matters which are urgent and which should be brought to the attention of the government. In the present case, however, the amendment asks that the house record its opinion as to the immediate necessity of increasing the amount of old age and blind pensions. That is a matter which can be discussed when the proper item in the estimates is before the committee; therefore it is not relevant to-day.

Topic:   PENSIONS-OLD AGE AND BLIND-AMENDMENT, MR. KNOWLES
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CCF

Major James William Coldwell

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. COLDWELL:

But the discussion on the motion to go into supply is still before the house, I take it?

Topic:   PENSIONS-OLD AGE AND BLIND-AMENDMENT, MR. KNOWLES
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LIB
CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. KNOWLES:

Then I should like to continue to speak to the motion to go into supply. You have ruled my amendment out of order, so that I cannot further speak to it, but I should like to continue to speak to the motion to go into supply.

Topic:   PENSIONS-OLD AGE AND BLIND-AMENDMENT, MR. KNOWLES
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LIB

Thomas Vien (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER:

On the same question?

Topic:   PENSIONS-OLD AGE AND BLIND-AMENDMENT, MR. KNOWLES
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CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. KNOWLES:

Yes, sir.

Topic:   PENSIONS-OLD AGE AND BLIND-AMENDMENT, MR. KNOWLES
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LIB

Thomas Vien (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER:

I have already ruled that this matter cannot be further discussed at this time.

Topic:   PENSIONS-OLD AGE AND BLIND-AMENDMENT, MR. KNOWLES
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NAT

Gordon Graydon (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. GRAYDON:

On the point of order, Mr. Speaker-

Topic:   PENSIONS-OLD AGE AND BLIND-AMENDMENT, MR. KNOWLES
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LIB

Thomas Vien (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER:

There is no point of order.

Topic:   PENSIONS-OLD AGE AND BLIND-AMENDMENT, MR. KNOWLES
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CCF

Major James William Coldwell

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. COLDWELL:

I did not hear what was said by the leader of the opposition (Mr. Gray don).

Topic:   PENSIONS-OLD AGE AND BLIND-AMENDMENT, MR. KNOWLES
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NAT

Gordon Graydon (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. GRAYDON:

I did not get a chance to say anything; I tried to sit down as gracefully as possible under very extraordinary circumstances.

Topic:   PENSIONS-OLD AGE AND BLIND-AMENDMENT, MR. KNOWLES
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LIB

Thomas Vien (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER:

There is no point of order. Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?

Mr. Mac.INNIS: Do I understand, Mr. Speaker, that I can continue with a discussion of the question of old age pensions on the motion to go into supply?

1412 COMMONS

Beer-Removal oj Federal Restrictions

Topic:   PENSIONS-OLD AGE AND BLIND-AMENDMENT, MR. KNOWLES
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LIB

Thomas Vien (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER:

No. I understood the hon. member for York-Sunbury (Mr. Hanson) wished to speak on the motion to go into supply, and I have no desire to deprive him of that opportunity, but at the moment he is not in his seat.

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BEER-REMOVAL OF FEDERAL RESTRICTIONS OF SUPPLIES TO PROVINCES

SC

John Horne Blackmore

Social Credit

Mr. J. H. BLACKMORE (Lethbridge):

Before you leave the chair, Mr. Speaker, I should like to refer to the statement made to-day by the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King), in the course of which he said that the provinces had cooperated with the dominion very enthusiastically up to the present time. I know he wishes that happy condition to continue, and consequently I believe he should have two or three matters brought to his attention.

In regard to the disagreement between the province of Alberta and the dominion as regards liquor there are two important statements about which I think the Prime Minister would be glad to hear. The first of these was issued on March 8, and appears in the Edmonton Bulletin of March 9. It is by Mr. J. A. King, chairman of the Alberta liquor control board, in reference to the statement by the Minister of National Revenue (Mr. Gibson), to which the Prime Minister referred. Mr. J. A. King said:

We certainly took all we could possibly buy. It is true that some of the distillers were unable to give us the full allotment to which we were entitled.

As the Prime Minister will recognize, that completely takes the sting out of the statement by the Minister of National Revenue (Mr. Gibson) that Alberta had not taken its full quota of liquor. Now we learn that Alberta took all the liquor it could get from the distillers, and that it could not get enough to fill its quota.

The second statement to which I should like to refer appears in the same issue of the Bulletin-, it is by Hon. S. E. Low, and I am sure the Prime Minister will be glad to have it on record because it will put that statesman in the right light. The Minister of National Revenue stated that the contention that the eastern provinces had been tipped off was without foundation. In reply Mr. Low repeats the statement made by Mr. J. A. King, that the province bought all it could and that the distillers could not provide any more liquor although Alberta could have used more. Then Mr. Low goes on to say: fMr. Maclnnis.]

Mr. Gibson's answer is most unsatisfactory. He still has to answer why the government selected October 31, 1942, as the end of the base year, and why it made the order retroactive to that date, when it was not issued until January, 1943, and also why even after the order came into effect, Ontario and Quebec could allow so much more liquor to permittees than we could. [DOT]

The Prime Minister can see that this indicates one cause of the disagreement which should be ironed out between the dominion and the province. Then Mr. Low continues:

The answer is quite clear. Ontario and Quebec knew the restrictions were coming up, and we certainly didn't. The people in the east were given every chance to buy up the liquor.

I am sure the Prime Minister would wish to have knowledge of these statements in order that the difficulties between the dominion and the province may be resolved. I should like to assure the right hon. gentleman that the government of Alberta is desirous of cooperating with the federal government in every respect; they have no desire for any friction or lack of harmony and are just as eager to have the war conducted in an efficient way as anyone could be.

Topic:   BEER-REMOVAL OF FEDERAL RESTRICTIONS OF SUPPLIES TO PROVINCES
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LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Prime Minister; Secretary of State for External Affairs; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):

I am pleased to have the assurance my hon. friend has just given. I do not question it at all; but if I caught aright the last sentence or two of what he has just read it was to the effect that Quebec knew about certain restrictions which were coming, and that Alberta did not. That is the sort of thing to which I take very strong exception. No province in this country had any intimation, as against information other provinces would have, with regard to what was to be done in respect of the restrictions made on the supply or sale of alcoholic beverages. It is the endeavour in certain quarters, every now and then to create a certain prejudice against both the government and Quebec, by referring to Quebec as though in some way it had been specially favoured, which makes difficulty in the country. I hope it will not be repeated. Perhaps what I have said to-day, or rather what the government has done to-day, may in that regard remove one of the possibilities of further repetition.

Topic:   BEER-REMOVAL OF FEDERAL RESTRICTIONS OF SUPPLIES TO PROVINCES
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SC

John Horne Blackmore

Social Credit

Mr. BLACKMORE:

I think the Prime Minister will grant that when government officials have a certain view, it is a very good thing to give open expression to that view, so that the matter may be cleared up.

Topic:   BEER-REMOVAL OF FEDERAL RESTRICTIONS OF SUPPLIES TO PROVINCES
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March 13, 1944