March 6, 1944

NAT

George James Tustin

National Government

Mr. TUSTIN:

Last year the agricultural food board designated where milk should go, whether to cheese factories or to conden-series. I have had a good many complaints recently from farmers who have had to send their milk to cheese factories. Last fall, when usually a number of factories would be closed, a subsidy was placed on milk for cheese factories, and consequently a number were kept open during the winter months. The complaint that I have from a good many farmers' in my constituency is that the price of milk going to the cheese factories is not comparable with the price of milk going to condenseries. There is a good, deal of dissatisfaction over that and a number of farmers appealed to me just over the week-end, saying that they had applied to the agricultural food board to be allowed to change over from sending their milk to the cheese factory but were refused permission to ship it to the condenseries. I have in my office a table which was prepared over the week-end, showing the difference in the amount the farmer receives according to whether his milk is shipped to a cheese factory or to a condensery. I have not it here because I did not know this item was coming up to-night. If I remember the figures correctly, a man who had twelve or fifteen cows last year showed me by a table that he had lost almost S200 by having to ship his milk to a cheese factory when he could have shipped it to a condensery if the food board had given him permission. On top of that, over the last

several months the condensery plant at Napanee has been shipping a good deal of milk to the city of Toronto for distribution, and all the milk shipped from there to the city of Toronto pays a premium to the farmer of twenty-five cents a hundred. So that the farmers, if they had been allowed to ship the milk to Toronto for distribution, would have benefited to that much greater extent. I appeal to the minister to give this matter consideration, because it is of much concern to the farmers. I should be glad to let the minister have the table I have in my office or present it to the committee at a later stage.

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LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

That would not come under this item. As a matter of fact, it would hardly come under any item in the main estimates, since the authority which we have to deal with that comes from the War Measures Act and the moneys provided come under the war appropriation. But I would be pleased to discuss the matter at that time.

This particular item has to do with scientific investigation of the qualities of milk and the treatment of milk as against different bacteria and things of that kind. It is just the scientific treatment of milk itself.

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PC

Mark Cecil Senn

Progressive Conservative

Mr. SENN:

I understand that the different uses to which the by-products of milk might be applied could be investigated under this item. For instance, the use of whey. Whey comes from the production of cheese. In some instances it is worth quite a considerable amount for feed; but if it gets too sour, if it is not properly cared for after the cheese is made, it is not nearly so valuable. Then there are the other by-products of the manufacture of butter, such as skim' milk powder and casein, and the different manufacturing outlets which I suppose should be investigated to see how much the price of them does add to. the value of the milk. However, if I am in the wrong category I do not want to continue.

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LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

All the research in connection with the fact that bacteria exist in the different products of milk comes under this particular item. I am not so sure that the values of milk as defined by the hon. member would come under this item. For example, the first matter dealt with is methods for measuring the quality of raw milk; next, care of milking machines, methods of taking care of them in order to avoid bacteria getting into the milk; surface deterioration in storage butter; the cause and remedy of discoloration in print butter; winter flavour in creamery butter; rancid flavour in Cheddar cheese; the

Supply-Agriculture

matter of studies on clarification of milk for Cheddar cheese making. These are the chief items under which discussion comes.

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Item agreed to. Science service- 8. Botany and plant pathology, $312,520.


NAT

Gordon Graydon (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. GRAYDON:

I know that the item

has been carried with respect to dairy research, but there is one matter to which I wish to refer. In the mines and resources estimates, under "national research council," a rather large sum of money, something over $300,000, is being appropriated, as the minister indicated at the beginning of his estimates, for research on agricultural matters. This dairy research, together with bacteriological and dairy research, as proposed1 under the increased vote indicated in the mines and resources estimates, will then be carried on under the auspices of the national research council. Does it not raise the whole question whether the council is the organization under which money voted for agricultural research should be expended? The minister will find himself, I believe, with research being done in the national research council under a vote in the mines and resources estimates, and he will also be saddled with another research branch having to do with problems of bacteriology and dairying. This matter was brought up before and received some attention in the discussion. I am inclined to think that those who took part favoured the retention in the Department of Agriculture of the research facilities which were being thus'expanded. If the minister would give an explanation in this connection it would be helpful.

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LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

It will not affect at all the matter of research as it is spoken of here. This has always been carried on in the Department of Agriculture under its usual activities, and will so continue. But there was a vote of $200,000 put in the agriculture estimates last year, in a supplementary vote, which was set apart for the purpose of doing certain research, more particularly in connection with oil-producing plants and the growing of different products particularly in the west and the extreme east. That vote does not appear in the estimates as they now are. It is my intention again to submit a $200,000 item to the treasury board and to the government in connection with our supplementaries this year in the hope that it will be continued. I am not now in a position to state whether it will

be continued or not. But there is an item, as has been suggested, of something over $325,000 in the Department of Trade and Commerce to carry on certain research. It is not this type of research: it is to try to find new uses, namely commercial uses, for different farm products, such as the utilization of wheat in the making of rubber. It may be that not much money will be spent on that particular object, but it will be things of that type- using wheat or grains for some other purpose -and a vote of that kind does not interfere with this one.

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NAT

Gordon Graydon (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. GRAYDON:

The minister is satisfied that it should be left with the national research council? '

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LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

I am satisfied that some of it has to be. That which is associated closely with industry is probably better left with the national research council. Where .the question is whether one can produce some particular type of plant in a certain area of Canada, I think it should be investigated by the Department of Agriculture, and the same may be said of projects such as the crossbreeding of plants to determine whether one can get better varieties for growing in this country.

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NAT

Douglas Gooderham Ross

National Government

Mr. ROSS (St. Paul's):

A new type of experimentation has been going on in the preservation of meat and the sterilization of milk and so on by electronics. Is that being undertaken by the National research council? Probably the question would come under the item affecting the research council, not the Department of Agriculture.

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LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

On all that kind of research we work in cooperation with the national research council. We ask them to do work for us and they do it. That was the intention in setting up the council, that all the research work which could be done by the ' research council would be done for all departments of government, and our department, in common with all others, gets as much done as we possibly can.

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NAT

Gordon Graydon (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. GRAYDON:

Mr. Chairman, let us be clear. The item which was carried before was item 7, but the minister was good enough to allow me to ask a supplementary question. That item is carried, but not item 8. Item 7 having been carried, let us call it eleven o'clock.

Progress reported.

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At eleven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order. Rules of the House



Tuesday, March 7, 1944


March 6, 1944