March 2, 1944

LIB

Charles Gavan Power (Associate Minister of National Defence; Minister of National Defence for Air; Minister of National Defence for Air and Associate Minister of National Defence)

Liberal

Mr. POWER:

Several members have asked questions with regard to the transfer of Canadian nationals who are now members of the R.A.F. or the W.A.A.F. to the R.C.A.F. Perhaps I may be permitted to table the regulations which are three or four pages long and have them inserted in Hansard. I shall do so with the consent of the committee. They are as follows:

Regulations governing the transfer of Canadian

Nationals who are members of the R.A.F

or W.A.A.F. to the R.C.A.F.

1. Up to the present time the policy respecting the transfer of Canadian nationals, who are members of the R.A.F., to the R.C.A.F., has been to consider only applications from personnel who are highly qualified, either from a technical standpoint or in some special phase of training operations in which the R.C.A.F. has a deficiency. Such transfers have been the exception rather than the rule, and the overriding principle has been that transfers will not ordinarily be made.

2. The question of such transfers was discussed during the B.C.A.T.P. conference at Ottawa in May-June, 1942, and appendix S to the minutes of the conference is as follows:

"It is agreed that United Kingdom and dominion partners will consider applications of individuals for transfer to the air forces of

War Appropriation-Air Service$

their own nationality with a view to such transfers taking place wherever the circumstances make it desirable, and subject to its being found possible to make financial arrangements satisfactory to the individuals concerned."

3. A large number of applications to transfer have been made, both in Canada and overseas, and are pending, and it is considered the matter should be brought to a finality and a general policy laid down with respect to the same.

4. The policy and procedure with respect to such transfers was further discussed by the Minister of National Defence for Air and the under secretary of state for air at a conference at Ottawa, in February, 1944, and it was agreed, upon behalf of the governments concerned, that Canadian nationals, who are members of the R.A.F. or W.A.A.F., w-ould be permitted to transfer to the R.C.A.F. upon the terms and conditions and in the circumstances hereinafter set forth.

5. A Canadian national for the purposes of such transfer shall be deemed to be either-

(a) a person not ordinarily resident in Great Britain who is, under the provisions of any act in force in the Dominion of Canada, a national or a citizen of the Dominion of Canada, within the meaning of that act, or is a person born or domiciled in the Dominion of Canada. For the purposes of this definition a person who is resident in Great Britain shall be deemed to be ordinarily resident there unless he has been resident in Great Britain for less than two years or has been or is residing there only for the purpose of attending a course of education or the circumstances of his residence in Great Britain are otherwise such as to show that he is residing there for a temporary xjurpose only;

(b) A British subject born or domiciled in the Dominion of Canada who departed from the Dominion of Canada for the purpose of joining the Royal Air Force and who in pursuance of such purpose has become a member of the Royal Air Force.

6. The following classes of personnel, who are Canadian nationals, may apply to transfer to the R.C.A.F.:

(a) Officers and airmen who joined the R.A.F.V.R. after the outbreak of the war.

(b) Regular officers and airmen, and officers holding short or medium service commissions who joined the R.A.F. on or after 1st January. 1935.

(c) Canadian-born women, not normally domiciled in the United Kingdom, who entered the United Kingdom to join the Women's Auxiliary Air Force before the establishment of the women's division of the R.C.A.F. in Canada.

(d) Canadian-born women, resident in the United Kingdom at the outbreak of the war, who joined the Women's Auxiliary Air Force, provided they were not permanently domiciled in the United Kingdom, and did not enter the United Kingdom for the purpose of establishing a domicile.

7. Procedure upon application

(a) Applications by such R.A.F. officers or airmen and W.A.A.F. officers or airwomen are to be submitted on an approved form through their commanding officers. Such applications will then be passed through the usual channels to air force headquarters or R.C.A.F. overseas 100-70

headquarters, as appropriate, where they will be dealt with and considered in accordance with the administrative procedure laid down.

(b) Upon approval by the appropriate R.C.A.F. and R.A.F. authorities, officer applicants will be required to relinquish their commissions in the R.A.F. or W.A.A.F., and airmen and airwomen applicants will be required to be discharged from the R.A.F. or W.A.A.F., and will be appointed to commissions or enlisted in the R.C.A.F. or R.C.A.F. (W.D.), as hereinafter provided, the effective date of appointment or enlistment in each case to be the day following the date of relinquishment of commission or discharge.

8. No transfers are to be finally approved and carried into effect unless the appropriate R.A.F. authority concurs in the same and agrees to release the officer, airman or airwoman concerned with no financial adjustment by the government of Canada or by the R.C.A.F.-

(a) in regard to any gratuity paid or payable to Canadian-born short service commission officers, or

(b) in respect of reserve service in the R.A.F., or

(c) otherwise, howsoever, in the event of such transfer taking place.

9. R.A.F. officers (permanent force) on the general list, and R.A.F.Y.R. officers on the general list, are to be transferred to and commissioned in the R.CA.F. special reserve, general list, in their temporary, substantive or war substantive rank (whichever is the highest) in the R.A.F. or R.A.F.V.R., with seniority in the R.C.A.F., special reserve, as of the date such temporary, substantive or war substantive rank (whichever is the highest) was granted to them in the R.A.F. or R.A.F.V.R. All acting ranks held at the time of transfer are to be relinquished.

10. RAF, officers (permanent force) on the non-flying list, and R.A.F.V.R. officers on the non-flying list are to be transferred to and commissioned in the R.C.A.F., special reserve, non-flying list, in the same branch as that in which they are serving in the R.A.F. or R.A.F.V.R., or in any other branch for which they are considered suitable, and in their temporary, substantive or war substantive rank (whichever is the highest) in the R.A.F. or R.A.F.Y.R., with seniority in the R.C.A.F., special reserve as of the date such temporary, substantive or war substantive rank (whichever is the highest) was granted to them in the R.A.F. or R.A.F.V.R. All acting ranks held at the time of transfer are to be relinquished.

11. W.A.A.F. officers are to be transferred! to and commissioned in the R.C.A.F. (W.D.) in the same branch as that in which they are serving in the W1.A.F, or in any other branch for which they are considered suitable, and in their temporary or war substantive rank (whichever is the higher) in the W.A.A.F. with seniority in the R.CA.F. (W.D.) as of the date such temporary or war substantive rank (whichever is the higher)^ was granted to them in the W.A.A.F. All acting ranks held at the time of transfer are to be relinquished.

12. R.A.F. (permanent force) airmen and R.A.F.Y.R. airmen are to be transferred to and enlisted in the R.C.A.F., special reserve,-

_ (a) (i) in the same trade and group as that in which they are serving in the R.A.F. or R.A.F.V.R.. or

War Appropriation-Air Services

(ii) in any other trade and group for which they are considered suitable and which is comparable to that held in the R.A.F. or R.A.F.V.R., and

(b) (i) in their temporary rank in the R.A.F. or R.A.F.V.R., or

(ii) in their classification in the R.A.F. or R.A.F.V.R., and

(c) with seniority (if any) in the R.C.A.F., special reserve, as of the date such temporary rank or classification was granted to them in the R.A.F. or R.A.F.V.R.

All acting ranks held at the time of transfer are to be relinquished.

13. Similar provisions to those set out in the immediately preceding paragraphs are to apply to the transfer of W.A.A.F. airwomen from the W.A.A.F. and their enlistment in the R.C.A.F. (W.D.).

14. No rights, credits or any financial advantages accruing from or because of service in the EA.F., R.A.F.V.R. or W.A.A.F. may be carried over into or will be given credit for in the R.C.A.F. or R.C.A.F. (W.D.). All applicants must understand that from a financial standpoint they are starting anew. Officers so transferred shall not be entitled to the uniform allowances given to R.C.A.F. officers upon first appointment.

15. The effective date of transfer to the R.C.A.F. shall be decided in each case between air ministry and the R.C.A.F. authorities.

The hon. member for York South asked a question along somewhat similar lines with regard to rehabilitation facilities and educational facilities being made available to Canadians in the R.A.F. This afternoon I put on Hansard a statement to the effect that predemobilization education and vocational training in either force would be available to the members of the other force. I have tried to make myself plain. In other words, if a Canadian is with an R.A.F. unit he could take advantage of the R.A.F. educational facilities. If a Britisher is with the R.C.A.F. he can take advantage of our educational facilities.

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CCF

Joseph William Noseworthy

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. NOSEWORTHY:

A Canadian who is in the R.A.F. cannot always take advantage of these facilities provided for the R.C.A.F.

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LIB

Charles Gavan Power (Associate Minister of National Defence; Minister of National Defence for Air; Minister of National Defence for Air and Associate Minister of National Defence)

Liberal

Mr. POWER:

It all depends upon where he is located. If he is located at certain stations he might have a chance.

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CCF

Joseph William Noseworthy

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. NOSEWORTHY:

I was thinking more of the period following the war.

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LIB

Charles Gavan Power (Associate Minister of National Defence; Minister of National Defence for Air; Minister of National Defence for Air and Associate Minister of National Defence)

Liberal

Mr. POWER:

Rehabilitation?

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CCF

Joseph William Noseworthy

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. NOSEWORTHY:

Yes.

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LIB

Charles Gavan Power (Associate Minister of National Defence; Minister of National Defence for Air; Minister of National Defence for Air and Associate Minister of National Defence)

Liberal

Mr. POWER:

With respect to pensions, if a man enlisted after 1935, or four years before the war in the R.A.F., he would be entitled, and if unfortunately he were killed his dependents would be entitled, to the same advantages and benefits as if he had enlisted in the R.C.A.F. That is covered by section 46A

of the act. In connection with rehabilitation I am sure the Minister of Pensions and National Health would be better able to explain that.

The leader of the opposition asked a question with regard to civil aviation. While I am in entire agreement with him I would rather he would discuss this matter with the Minister of Transport who is in charge of that phase of aviation. With regard to travelling time I may say that I am having this looked into and will have a reply ready on Monday.

With regard to equality of pay for our women's division I may say that I am entirely in agreement with the hon. member for North Battleford (Mrs. Nielsen). At one time there was a distinct difference in the rates of pay in all services. The women obtained only seventy-five per cent of the men's pay, and only seventy-five per cent of trades pay-which seemed to be somewhat of an anomaly. We did raise the seventy-five per cent to eighty per cent. Why we did not raise it to 100, I do not know. But we of the service did succeed in having a logical thing done, that if they were carrying on a trade and drawing trades pay, it did not seem sensible to give them only two-thirds of the trades pay; if they were doing a job of work they should at least have got 100 per cent.

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NAT

Gordon Graydon (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. GRAYDON:

"Equal pay for equal work."

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LIB

Charles Gavan Power (Associate Minister of National Defence; Minister of National Defence for Air; Minister of National Defence for Air and Associate Minister of National Defence)

Liberal

Mr. POWER:

And that, at least in trades pay, has been arranged. As to the basic pay, it is still four-fifths of the full pay, and I have every sympathy with anybody who wants to raise it to the full amount.

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NAT

Gordon Graydon (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. GRAYDON:

Why does the minister not raise it?

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LIB

Charles Gavan Power (Associate Minister of National Defence; Minister of National Defence for Air; Minister of National Defence for Air and Associate Minister of National Defence)

Liberal

Mr. POWER:

I will to-morrow, if somebody will give me the money.

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NAT

Gordon Graydon (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. GRAYDON:

Surely we have money enough to raise the pay. I am afraid that is not a good enough answer. I do not say there is anything else the minister can say.

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CCF

Joseph William Noseworthy

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. NOSEWORTHY:

Put it in the estimates; the house will pass it.

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LIB

Charles Gavan Power (Associate Minister of National Defence; Minister of National Defence for Air; Minister of National Defence for Air and Associate Minister of National Defence)

Liberal

Mr. POWER:

I think so. On the question of leave for aircrew and groundcrew, I prefer to take that up and make a more general statement later on.

The question of prisoners of war is really a matter that comes under the Department of National War Services. The question of parcels for prisoners of war is a matter which does not come under this department at all. I am not aware, and would have no means

Italian Government

110?

of being aware, except indirectly, of what goes on with respect to prisoners of war parcels or prisoners of war.

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PC

Alfred Henry Bence

Progressive Conservative

Mr. BENCE:

It comes under the Department of National Defence. There is a committee headed by a colonel of the department.

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LIB

Charles Gavan Power (Associate Minister of National Defence; Minister of National Defence for Air; Minister of National Defence for Air and Associate Minister of National Defence)

Liberal

Mr. POWER:

I am sorry. I am corrected. I should have known that Colonel Clarke is in charge of it. I could not quite define his duties.

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PC
LIB

Charles Gavan Power (Associate Minister of National Defence; Minister of National Defence for Air; Minister of National Defence for Air and Associate Minister of National Defence)

Liberal

Mr. POWER:

At the moment he has general supervision, and he has been very active indeed. He has done great work in trying to get parcels to prisoners of war in the east and in arranging for parcels for prisoners of war in Germany. The air force has a representative on the committee over which Colonel Clarke presides.

The hon. member for Saskatoon wanted to know why we did not add the factor of congestion to the factors taken into consideration in the matter of closing of schools. I must tell him that we do. We are endeavouring to close schools in the large centres, rather than in the smaller ones where the economic life of the community would be more seriously disturbed. With regard to Ottawa, I understand the school to which my hon. friend refers is what is called the W.E.T.P. school. It will be closed shortly. It is not a school where flying goes on; all the men connected with flying in the Ottawa district are accommodated either at Uplands or at Rockcliffe, where we have ample accommodation for them. They do not Cause any congestion of accommodation in the city of Ottawa.

Item stands.

Progress reported.

On motion of Mr. Mackenzie (Vancouver Centre) the house adjourned at 11.05 p.m.

Friday, March 3, 1944

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March 2, 1944