February 14, 1944

LIB

James Layton Ralston (Minister of National Defence)

Liberal

Mr. RALSTON:

I can say to my hon. friend that I have seen quite a number of these men that he speaks of and who he says do not have to be very bright. I am thinking of the Longue Point depot, for instance. I think some of these men and women would qualify as members of parliament. I do not think they are devoid of grey matter.

Topic:   COM'MONS
Permalink
NAT

Gordon Knapman Fraser

National Government

Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):

We have been talking all around item number one. Last year the item amounted to $8,832,000. This year it is $16,000,000. I should like to ask the minister why the item is almost double this year and just what it covers.

Topic:   COM'MONS
Permalink
LIB

James Layton Ralston (Minister of National Defence)

Liberal

Mr. RALSTON:

The increase is due to the fact that we have very much increased the number of civilian employees as we have *decreased the service personnel. The total increase, as my hon. friend will see, amounts to about $7,000,000. Soldier's were replaced by civilians, and that accounts for about $2,000,-

000. Included in that also are the hourly paid employees who were included elsewhere in 1943 and 1944. That amounts to $3,000,000. In other words, that $3,000,000 is taken from another place and is cut off another item.

Topic:   COM'MONS
Permalink
NAT

Gordon Knapman Fraser

National Government

Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):

Do the people who are employed wear uniforms?

Topic:   COM'MONS
Permalink
LIB

James Layton Ralston (Minister of National Defence)

Liberal

Mr. RALSTON:

No. I inquired about this item. I said, how is it we increased the pay and allowances of the civilian employees, and increased the pay and allowances of the army and still, at the same time, were reducing the

"Mr. Halston.]

army? As a matter of fact, I found the actual decrease in the pay and allowances of other ranks is $17,000,000 as compared with 1943-44, but various increases total $24,000,000 altogether in pay and allowances. Of this, $17,000,000 is accounted for by the decrease in pay of other ranks, while the increase in the pay of civilians is about $7,000,000. Therefore, on this basis, you will see there is a saving of about $10,000,000. There is one more item, reclassification of positions, $552,000, which is another part of the $7,000,000. The growth of army administration shows an increase of $2,000,000, due to increased number of employees.

Topic:   COM'MONS
Permalink
NAT

Gordon Knapman Fraser

National Government

Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):

Is that a reclassification of civilian positions?

Topic:   COM'MONS
Permalink
LIB

James Layton Ralston (Minister of National Defence)

Liberal

Mr. RALSTON:

Civil Service reclassification. Reclassifications are taking effect now, a certain number every year.

Topic:   COM'MONS
Permalink
NAT
LIB

James Layton Ralston (Minister of National Defence)

Liberal

Mr. RALSTON:

That is a reclassification of twenty-three hundred positions since the 1943-44 estimates were prepared.. The total is $552,000 altogether.

Topic:   COM'MONS
Permalink
?

Mr. CHAIRMAN@

Shall the item carry?

Topic:   COM'MONS
Permalink
NAT

Grote Stirling

National Government

Mr. STIRLING:

Can the minister give the committee some information with regard to the organization that is being set up to take over administrative duties in reoccupied countries? I have had several inquiries made by officers who are at the present time in the army in Canada. Some of these men, it would seem to me, are well suited by their experience for suc-h work. Is it an international organization that is being set up, of which Canada supplies so much, or is Canada setting up an organization of her own for that purpose? Can the minister give the committee some information with regard to that organization?

Topic:   COM'MONS
Permalink
LIB

James Layton Ralston (Minister of National Defence)

Liberal

Mr. RALSTON:

I have a memorandum here, but I shall not read it all. The situation in North Africa was the first immediate situation which required attention in the way of civil administration. The necessity for some measure of temporary jurisdiction being established by the military over the large number of civilians in territories freed from enemy control was indicated. The commanders in chief first appointed officers for that purpose. These were known as civil administrators or military governors, as the case might be, and the work was carried on by military personnel. The civil affairs officers were employed, first, on staffs of formations and, second, as civil

War Appropriation-Army

affairs detachments. I remember, if I may interject the observation, that a member of the tariff board of Canada, Major Hebert, is a member of the civil affairs administration in Italy at the present time. During an advance the formation staffs -tackle the problems as they arise, and detachments are established when important towns or centres are taken. The detachment then guards every t-own or centre under direction from formation headquarters and in cooperation with the local authorities if available.

Following on .the opening of -civil affairs schools in Britain and the United States it was decided to conduct a two-months' course along similar lines in Canada and we have established a course at the Royal Military college. The first group of twenty-four ^officers graduated recently. That is a joint undertaking covering the three services, the Department of External Affairs acting in an advisory capacity. A number of Canadian officers overseas have attended the civil affairs school in England and a few have taken the course in the United States. Our people who have established the school at the Royal Military college and are in charge of it have been at the school in England and also at the school in the United States to make themselves familiar with the syllabus provided and to ascertain the different kinds of training given in Britain and America. Canadian officers will be available for the staffs of Canadian formations for work at various times in which there is intermixture of British and American. The civil affairs administration is a temporary measure to be maintained in any locality only so long as it is required.

My hon. friend has inquired with regard to an officer friend, and I may tell him that commanding officers were asked to make recommendations of those who had qualifications, who had some knowledge of municipal affairs, town planning or general administration, or public utilities, water works, light systems and matters of that kind. Linguists are also useful, though not unless they have some training or experience in connection with civil administration. As my hon. friend quite understands, there is very little in the way of military training given, because it is a military officer who is being dealt with. If anyone in whom my hon. friend is interested wishes to do so, anyone who might be qualified for this work, he ought to apply to his D.O.C. and have his name sent in.

Topic:   COM'MONS
Permalink
NAT
LIB

James Layton Ralston (Minister of National Defence)

Liberal

Mr. RALSTON:

I do not know how long we shall maintain the school here. There is

also a school in England. I expect there will be two or three more courses, and the number may be a hundred or more.

Topic:   COM'MONS
Permalink
NAT

Douglas Gooderham Ross

National Government

Mr. ROSS (St. Paul's):

Will the minister give those figures about which I inquired?

Topic:   COM'MONS
Permalink
NAT

Thomas Langton Church

National Government

Mr. CHURCH:

Last session the Minister of National Defence for the army laid before the house a schedule recording pay and allowances for all ranks. It would surprise members to know of the different inequalities that exist, starting with lieutenant-colonel and major right down to private. The return showed a rate per- day of SI HO and in some cases SI .50, and it went straight across the blueprint, giving the total for the year. There were a great many inequalities in that schedule of the lower-paid men, and I should like to find out what is being done to remove them. The minister for the navy and . the minister for air followed and gave a similar statement, a blueprint which was published in Hansard. It caused a great deal of dissatisfaction among the returned men and those overseas, because some received certain allowances, while others did not get anything. It may not be altogether in the minister's department, but I think some explanation ought to be given while the minister's estimates are before us, because the same thing applies throughout. Young men have joined up from the high schools of the country. The high schools of Toronto alone have given (XK) men in casualties to the air force. I suggest, therefore, that the inequalities that appear in the schedule should be removed.

In the matter of allowances, some receive them and others do not. Section 11, subsection 3, of the Pension Act applies to the army, and last week a deputation appeared before the board of control in connection with this matter. One section relates to the necessitous circumstances of soldiers coming home. They do not get a grant at all and some are practically on the street. That section as applied to the army means simply charity. As I say, a deputation appeared before the board of control of Toronto last Thursday, and I will send the information to the minister. As regards clothing allowances, the $65 for a returned man should be marked up. The officers have been marked up and I do not see why the privates and non-commissioned officers should be forgotten. They are largely doing good work in the camps. I receive many letters from the returned men. There are many in my constituency and throughout Toronto. I do not like to bother the minister, but I hope that- something will be done to remove the inequalities between the private soldier and the non-commissioned officers as

War Appropriation-Army

compared with the men at the top of the ladder. There should be an announcement, and I hope it will come shortly, with regard to this whole matter, which will give to these people who are coming home some additional allowance for clothing and so on. The minister gave an elaborate statement last year about the matters to which I have referred, and I should like to find out if anything additional in allowance is to be done about the large number of men who are coming back from the front.

Topic:   COM'MONS
Permalink
LIB

James Layton Ralston (Minister of National Defence)

Liberal

Mr. RALSTON:

What I shall try to do is to get the statement made last year and make a comparison to see how much ironing out there has been of the inconsistencies in the different classes. I believe a substantial change has been effected since that schedule was filed. I should like to see what it looks like this year. We might prepare a new schedule and see how it compares with the old. With regard to the other matter, rehabilitation and the announcement of a policy with respect to what assistance is to be given, that announcement will be made in due course. I will take note of what my hon. friend says and see if we cannot get a new statement to see how it compares with the old, and what suggestion my hon. friend has to make.

Topic:   COM'MONS
Permalink
NAT

Thomas Langton Church

National Government

Mr. CHURCH:

Regarding pay and allowances, there is a good deal of complaint in the camps about leave, and the amount of money the soldier must pay to get home over the week-end. This applies to Camp Borden and many other camps, but little is done about it. The other day in Toronto we had an announcement by Major-General Chisholm which has caused a great deal of dissension and dissatisfaction in the Toronto district among women whose men are at the front or at the camps. Something should be done to find out from the railway companies what they intend to do with regard to a reduction of fares at week-ends for men at the camps. As you know, Mr. Chairman, down to the end of 1940 the railways had made more money than during the entire four and a half }rears of the last war. Surely something should be done by the government and the minister to see that these men are allowed cheaper fares to get home.

Apparently there is a rule now in force that the men are not allowed to write letters to the newspapers about these matters. If that rule applies to privates and non-commissioned officers it should apply also to Major-General Chisholm, who in his talk has caused a great deal of disunity among the families of our soldiers. If it were not for the women who

are doing such magnificent work at home, I doubt if we would have had such success as we have had in connection with recruiting. I hope the rule will apply to Major-General Chisholm and the rest of those at the top who are spreading these rumours about leaves and doing a great deal to hurt recruiting.

Topic:   COM'MONS
Permalink
LIB

James Layton Ralston (Minister of National Defence)

Liberal

Mr. RALSTON:

The hon. member for

St. Paul's asked for the enlistments in 1943. The figures are as follows: '

January 12,366

February 8.896

March 8.231

April 6,650

May 6.609

June 5,485

July 4.805

August 4,884

September 5.029

October 4,306

November 3,565

December (estimated) 3,500

This book is a little old, and I have just obtained an estimate for the month of December from the officer who is before me. This makes an approximate total of 74,000 for the year.

Topic:   COM'MONS
Permalink
LIB

February 14, 1944