February 14, 1944

NAT

Gordon Graydon (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. GRAYDON:

No.

Topic:   LABOUR CONDITIONS
Subtopic:   WARTIME WAGES CONTROL ORDER P.C. 9384- MOTION FOR ADJOURNMENT UNDER STANDING ORDER 31
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NAT

Richard Burpee Hanson

National Government

Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):

I submit respectfully to Your Honour that you gave a

Labour Conditions-Wages Control

decision on a point of order and therefore this motion is either in order or out of order. Whatever you may conclude, that is your decision, that is the judgment of this court on a question of order, and certainly it is appealable.

Topic:   LABOUR CONDITIONS
Subtopic:   WARTIME WAGES CONTROL ORDER P.C. 9384- MOTION FOR ADJOURNMENT UNDER STANDING ORDER 31
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LIB

Thomas Vien (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER:

Standing order 31, subsection 3, states with reference to the member who desires to make the motion:

He then hands a written statement of the matter proposed to be discussed to the Speaker, who, if he thinks it in order and of urgent public importance, reads it out and asks whether the member has the leave of the house.

I take from that the decision rests entirely with the Chair. The Chair must decide whether it is in order. In this case 1 was not required 'to decide a point of order. What I did say to the hon. member for Cumberland was that I wished him to give reasons to support his claim of urgency in the matter. I repeat the standing order:

He then hands a written statement of the matter proposed to be discussed to the Speaker, who, if he thinks it in order and of urgent public importance, reads it out and asks whether the member has the leave of the house.

I did not think it in order; therefore the hon. member has not the leave of the house.

Topic:   LABOUR CONDITIONS
Subtopic:   WARTIME WAGES CONTROL ORDER P.C. 9384- MOTION FOR ADJOURNMENT UNDER STANDING ORDER 31
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NAT

Gordon Graydon (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. GRAYDON:

May I respectfully point out to Your Honour that the custody of the rights of this parliament rests with the members of parliament themselves. When a question arises as to whether or not the ruling of Your Honour is a proper ruling, surely there does not arise, as Your Honour would suggest in this instance, the right of the Speaker to make a decision quite apart from reference to the house itself. This would be particularly so when a part of the house has asked that the opinion of the house foe tested on this point. The hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Black) now asks that the opinion of the house be tested, and we are prepared to rise in sufficient numbers in order that the opinion of the house shall be tested now.

Topic:   LABOUR CONDITIONS
Subtopic:   WARTIME WAGES CONTROL ORDER P.C. 9384- MOTION FOR ADJOURNMENT UNDER STANDING ORDER 31
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LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Prime Minister; Secretary of State for External Affairs; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

My hon. friend has just referred to the custody of the rights and privileges of hon. members of the house. These are in the care of His Honour the Speaker. My hon. friend well knows that at Westminster, from which we take our example in these matters, it is not only the tradition, i't is the custom and the practice of the house, to obey the Speaker in his rulings as largely as possible and to have very serious grounds before taking exception. I do submit that if this house is to get on with its business in the way in which it should, it is important that we should not be indifferent to the opinions expressed by the Speaker and begin

a practice of appealing from the Speaker's rulings time after time without number. A lot of time of the house has been wasted in that way in previous sessions, and I do submit that the decorum and business of the house will both be furthered by hon. members accepting the rulings of the Speaker unless there are the strongest of reasons to the contrary.

Topic:   LABOUR CONDITIONS
Subtopic:   WARTIME WAGES CONTROL ORDER P.C. 9384- MOTION FOR ADJOURNMENT UNDER STANDING ORDER 31
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LIB

Thomas Vien (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER:

I would refer hon. members to page 747 of Beauchesne, third edition, on which is reported a decision by the hon. member for Yukon (Mr. Black), who was then Speaker of the house. I quote:

The Speaker's refusal to permit an appeal from his decision that it is not urgent to adjourn the house for the purpose of discussing an urgent matter of public importance being appealed from was confirmed by the house.

Leave had been asked under standing order 31 to move the adjournment of the house for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, which was stated to be: ,

The recent dismissal of between 200 and 300 officers and men of the Royal Canadian Air Force without regard to their families, their overseas service or their period of enlistment or service, and the embarrassing situation which may arise if they were forced by the necessity for employment to accept service with another nation.

_ Mr. Speaker ruled that the statement was not in order and that the matter was not one of urgent public importance and moreover that there -was no appeal from his decision.

Mr. Ralston appealed from the Speaker's i;efusal to permit an appeal from his decision.

And the question being put by Mr. Speaker: Shall the ruling of the Chair be sustained; it was decided in the affirmative.

Topic:   LABOUR CONDITIONS
Subtopic:   WARTIME WAGES CONTROL ORDER P.C. 9384- MOTION FOR ADJOURNMENT UNDER STANDING ORDER 31
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NAT

Gordon Graydon (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. GRAYDON:

I did not quite hear one part of that quotation. Was it the present Minister of National Defence who made the appeal at that time?

Topic:   LABOUR CONDITIONS
Subtopic:   WARTIME WAGES CONTROL ORDER P.C. 9384- MOTION FOR ADJOURNMENT UNDER STANDING ORDER 31
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LIB

Ian Alistair Mackenzie (Minister of Pensions and National Health)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):

Why not? It killed the air force.

Topic:   LABOUR CONDITIONS
Subtopic:   WARTIME WAGES CONTROL ORDER P.C. 9384- MOTION FOR ADJOURNMENT UNDER STANDING ORDER 31
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LIB

Charles Gavan Power (Associate Minister of National Defence; Minister of National Defence for Air; Minister of National Defence for Air and Associate Minister of National Defence)

Liberal

Mr. POWER:

Sabotage of the air force by the government of the day.

Topic:   LABOUR CONDITIONS
Subtopic:   WARTIME WAGES CONTROL ORDER P.C. 9384- MOTION FOR ADJOURNMENT UNDER STANDING ORDER 31
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NAT

Richard Burpee Hanson

National Government

Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):

You began the sabotage back in 1923.

Topic:   LABOUR CONDITIONS
Subtopic:   WARTIME WAGES CONTROL ORDER P.C. 9384- MOTION FOR ADJOURNMENT UNDER STANDING ORDER 31
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LIB

Thomas Vien (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER:

The appeal was made by the present Minister of National Defence.

Topic:   LABOUR CONDITIONS
Subtopic:   WARTIME WAGES CONTROL ORDER P.C. 9384- MOTION FOR ADJOURNMENT UNDER STANDING ORDER 31
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PRIVILEGE

MR. GARDINER-REFERENCE TO STATEMENT OF MR. COLDWELL IN DEBATE ON FEBRUARY 10 AND EDITORIAL IN OTTAWA "CITIZEN"


On the order for motions:


LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Hon. J. G. GARDINER (Minister of Agriculture) :

Topic:   PRIVILEGE
Subtopic:   MR. GARDINER-REFERENCE TO STATEMENT OF MR. COLDWELL IN DEBATE ON FEBRUARY 10 AND EDITORIAL IN OTTAWA "CITIZEN"
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No. 20456


Mr. Graydon: They must have been a fleet of jeeps. Mr. Coldwell: No. They were not jeeps. Some were fine modern cars, including one fine maroon car which I am told the minister himself drove on one occasion to attend a political appointment. Who paid for the gas and upkeep of the ears? The people of Canada. But the political machine is so brazen in the province of Saskatchewan that it dared to do this sort of thing in the midst of a by-election. And so, when the minister talks about regimentation, let me remind the house that no other province in this dominion, at any time, has been regimented in poverty by a political machine to the _ extent that Saskatchewan w'as regimented during the depression years. Unless you were a member of the Libera] party or had a recommendation from that party you found it difficult to get relief work. There are certain statements in the Hansard report to which I wish to refer because they reflect upon my activities as a member of this house and of the government. At page 334 of Hansard the minister for Rosetown-Biggar-


NAT
NAT
LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

He just missed being a minister by two years-a minister of the church. The member for Rosetown-Biggar

stated at page 334:

Let me say to the house that employees of the federal government were there in force with cars belonging to the Dominion of Canada.

Answer: There was not a single federal government employee who had a car belonging to the Dominion of Canada which was being used for political purposes in the constituency of Humboldt during the by-election to my knowledge.

Again at page 334 the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar states:

We made a check of them. I have before me only a partial list of some of the cars that were present during the time I myself was in that constituency. I saw some of them there parked outside the hotel where I was staying, which also happened to be the headquarters of the Liberal party.

Topic:   No. 20456
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February 14, 1944