July 13, 1943

?

@Acting Chair(man)? of Committees of the Whole

(Mr. Golding) : If hon. members will turn to page 30-

Topic:   CANADIAN ARMY
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   OOMM'ONS
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NAT

Gordon Graydon (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. GRAYDON:

Before we do that, Mr. Chairman, there is a point I think perhaps should be raised here in connection with two items which, as the Prime Minister quite properly pointed out, are statutory and cannot be reduced by a vote in committee. Nevertheless I think they must be passed by the committee in order that the amounts provided may be made actually available.

Topic:   CANADIAN ARMY
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LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Prime Minister; Secretary of State for External Affairs; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

No. Parliament has already appropriated' the money by statute.

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NAT

Gordon Graydon (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. GRAYDON:

Surely that does not prevent a discussion of the items, since they are in the estimates. I think on previous occasions we have always taken the position that even though some statutory provision was made for a certain sum of money to be paid, as long as it actually appeared in the estimates for the current year we were not precluded from discussing such items.

Supply-External Affairs

Topic:   CANADIAN ARMY
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LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Prime Minister; Secretary of State for External Affairs; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

I have no desire to preclude any discussion, but I thought nay hon. friends' objection was raised to the chairman calling another item. There are no further items to be called under the heading of external affairs, because in connection with the statutory items the necessary supply has already been appropriated by parliament.

Topic:   CANADIAN ARMY
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NAT

Gordon Graydon (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. GRAYDON:

If that is the case why do they appear in the estimates at all?

Topic:   CANADIAN ARMY
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LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Prime Minister; Secretary of State for External Affairs; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

They help to give the house a picture of the total expenditures, some of which represent appropriations made year by year, while others are appropriations by statute covering once and for all a period of years.

Topic:   CANADIAN ARMY
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PC

Joseph Henry Harris

Progressive Conservative

Mr. HARRIS (Danforth):

What the Prime Minister says is quite true in all respects, except that he knows it has been the practice in other years to call these items.

Topic:   CANADIAN ARMY
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LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Prime Minister; Secretary of State for External Affairs; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

I think my hon. friend is quite wrong in making that statement. They are not called, because the money has already been appropriated. However, the leader of the opposition is quite right in saying that if there is any matter pertaining to external affairs it should! be open to the committee to question the government with respect to it at some time in a consideration of the estimates.

Topic:   CANADIAN ARMY
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NAT

Gordon Graydon (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. GRAYDON:

I have one or two questions I should like to ask on this general item, if I may, in connection with the annuity payable to Hon. Philippe Roy. Could the Prime Minister tell me when the legislation was passed providing for this annuity, how long it has been paid, and how long it will be paid in future according to the legislation?

Topic:   CANADIAN ARMY
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LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Prime Minister; Secretary of State for External Affairs; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

The appropriation was made in 1938, when the Hon. Philippe Roy retired from the post of minister to France. The annuity has been paid since that time. How long it will continue to be paid will depend) upon how long Mr. Roy continues to live, which I hope may be for many years.

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NAT

Gordon Graydon (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. GRAYDON:

In other words, it was made payable during his lifetime?

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LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Prime Minister; Secretary of State for External Affairs; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

Yes.

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NAT

Gordon Graydon (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. GRAYDON:

Is that the general practice in connection with those who retire from the diplomatic service?

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LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Prime Minister; Secretary of State for External Affairs; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

In Mr. Roy's case there were exceptional reasons. Mr. Roy had been appointed years ago as eom-

missioner-general. to France, before Canada had any legations. When the legation at Paris was opened Mr. Roy was made the first minister. At the time this annuity was granted to Mr. Roy his long and quite exceptional service to Canada, as our representative in France, was taken into consideration by parliament, and it was thought appropriate to accord that recognition to one who had given so many years of distinguished service. I might say to my hon. friend that the whole question of what in our diplomatic service should be granted in the way of allowances or annuities or pensions on retirement is a very large problem which up to the present we have not faced squarely. At different times the department has tried to work out a scheme that would cover the entire diplomatic service and have it placed on a basis similar to that which exists in Britain with respect to pensions and retiring allowances. One circumstance after another has prevented us from getting ahead with that particular plan. For the last four years, of course, the war has accounted for the fact that we have not brought forward any scheme of pensions to such members of the public service on retirement.

Topic:   CANADIAN ARMY
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NAT

Gordon Graydon (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. GRAYDON:

Was Mr. Roy in the

public service for some considerable time prior to accepting his original commission in France?

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LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Prime Minister; Secretary of State for External Affairs; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

For some years Mr. Roy was a senator in this parliament. His original appointment as commissioner-general to France was made as long ago as 1911. From 1911 to 1928, I think it was, he was commissioner; and from 1928-

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NAT

Gordon Graydon (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. GRAYDON:

Was lie still a senator while he was commissioner?

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LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Prime Minister; Secretary of State for External Affairs; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

Oh, no; he

resigned from the senate at the time of his appointment.

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NAT

Gordon Graydon (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Air. GRAYDON:

Has the Prime Minister any details as to his salary as commissioner to France?

Topic:   CANADIAN ARMY
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   OOMM'ONS
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July 13, 1943