April 20, 1943

CCF

Clarence Gillis

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. GILLIS:

I mentioned Toronto for this reason-

Topic:   LEGISLATION-HOUSE OF COMMONS
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NAT

John Ritchie MacNicol

National Government

Mr. MacNICOL:

I am in this house as

much as the hon. member.

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CCF
NAT
CCF

Clarence Gillis

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. GILLIS:

Toronto has the largest representation in this house of any city in Canada. It is close enough to Ottawa to enable members to go home on week-ends, and the majority of them do go home. The western members and the eastern members are here for the session when they come to Ottawa at the opening, and the result is that they are in the house all the time and are paying attention to their work.

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NAT

John Ritchie MacNicol

National Government

Mr. MacNICOL:

[DOT] Montreal has a larger representation. The hon. member does not know the facts.

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CCF

Clarence Gillis

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. GILLIS:

I am not as familiar with

the Quebec members because they do not mingle with us as much as do the Toronto members. We generally recognize them as being "T to T" members; they are here from Tuesday to Thursday most weeks. *

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NAT

Harry Rutherford Jackman

National Government

Mr. JACKMAN:

The statement which the hon. member has just made is to my own knowledge not based on fact, and I ask that it be withdrawn. The hon. member has endeavoured to cast reflections on certain private members. I ask that he be directed to withdraw the statement.

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CCF

Clarence Gillis

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. GILLIS:

I am not withdrawing anything. I merely stated that that has been my experience since I came here. It is a state-

Supply-Parliamentary Assistants

meat of fact so far as I am concerned, and I am not withdrawing it. The hon. member for Rosedale may have a different opinion.

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NAT

Harry Rutherford Jackman

National Government

Mr. JACKMAN:

Mr. Chairman, may I

have your ruling on my request?

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LIB

Joseph-Arthur Bradette (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

The CHAIRMAN:

The hon. member for

Cape Breton South must accept the statement of the hon.'member for Rosedale.

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NAT
CCF

Clarence Gillis

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. GILLIS:

No; I am not withdrawing my statement.

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LIB

Joseph-Arthur Bradette (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

The CHAIRMAN:

Order. The statement

which has been made by the hon. member for Rosedale will have to be accepted, namely, that what the hon. member for Cape Breton South said about members from the city of Toronto is not according to the facts, and could not apply to himself, as far as the attendance in this House of Commons is concerned.

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CCF

Clarence Gillis

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. GILLIS:

I want him to present his facts. I gave my opinion, and I stated the reasons for it. If the hon. member for Rosedale has any facts which prove the contrary, he is privileged to put them on record. He has not done so; and the mere fact that he rises in his place and says that what I have said is not a statement of fact does not change my opinion or the correctness of the statement which I make.

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LIB

Joseph-Arthur Bradette (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

The CHAIRMAN:

The ruling is this, that what was said by the hon. member for Cape Breton South was a question of fact, and the fact not having been accepted by the hon. member for Rosedale, the -hon. member who made it must of necessity accept the statement of the hon. member for Rosedale.

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LIB

Jean-François Pouliot

Liberal

Mr. POULIOT:

Speaking to the point of order, I remember distinctly that in former years I was forced to withdraw something which I had said without using any unparliamentary language. The only thing which an hon. member shall withdraw is unparliamentary language. Por instance, if he uses profane language in talking of a colleague, or uses ridicule to the point of making his colleague blush, or makes statements like that, the hon. member must withdraw. But if an hon. member does not use unparliamentary language, a statement of another hon. member in contradiction of his own is enough to close the matter.

72537-150 1

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LIB

Joseph-Arthur Bradette (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

The CHAIRMAN:

According to a statement of Bourinot in his " Parliamentary Procedure," pages 352, 365, citation 313 of

Beauchesne:

It has been formally ruled by Speakers in the Canadian Commons that a statement by an honourable member respecting himself and peculiarly within his own knowledge must be accepted, but it is not unparliamentary to temperately criticize statements made by a member as being contrary to the facts; but no imputation of intentional falsehood is permissible.

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?

An hon. MEMBER:

"Respecting himself."

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LIB

Joseph-Arthur Bradette (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

The CHAIRMAN:

I have made my ruling. The hon. member for Rosedale has objected as contrary to fact the references of the hon. member for Cape Breton South to the representatives of Toronto in the House of Commons. I hope the hon. member for Cape Breton South will withdraw.

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April 20, 1943