March 22, 1943

CCF

Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):

The term "cooperatives" could quite easily be defined so as to cover them, because they are cooperatives.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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LIB

Thomas F. Donnelly

Liberal

Mr. DONNELLY:

I will tell the hon. member about it.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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CCF

Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):

You have told a lot of people about things, but they were not impressed-and sometimes they have found out that what you told them was not right.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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LIB

Thomas F. Donnelly

Liberal

Mr. DONNELLY:

Sometimes you are not right, either.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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CCF

Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):

The wheat pools, and the farmers who belonged to them, have never objected to paying taxes; they have never asked for special privileges. But what they have pointed out is that the proceeds, commonly called "patronage dividends," are not dividends in the ordinary sense of the word. They are not returns paid to a man who has invested his money in shares, and who may never see a bushel of wheat. These patronage dividends are in effect savings; they

1444 COMMONS

The Budget-Mr. Douglas (Weyburn)

are the savings which have come back to the people who own and patronize these marketing and storage facilities.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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LIB

Colin William George Gibson (Minister of National Revenue)

Liberal

Mr. GIBSON:

Does the hon. member suggest that the wheat pools, to which he is referring, come under the exemption granted in the Income War Tax Act, and that they qualify as not dealing with more than 20 per cent from non-members.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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CCF

Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):

I contend that they are cooperatives and that they do come under the exemption. The minister says that they take grain, but they are compelled by the board of grain commissioners to take grain. As a matter of fact, I know that in order to retain their identity as cooperatives and benefit by this exemption the pools have offered to turn over to the government the money they have made by doing work for non-pool members. The government says to the pools, "You must take grain." Then they turn round and say, "Because you take grain, you can no longer be considered to be a bona fide cooperative organization," and they begin to levy taxes. I have been told by those who ought to know that if this assessment is made and the tax levied and made retroactive, it will cost the wheat producers of western Canada in the neighbourhood of $5,000,000. That is a tragic situation.

I ask the western members, particularly those who support the government, what they are going to do about it. If this assessment goes through and these taxes are levied, every cooperative organization in Canada from the prairies to Antigonish may be threatened.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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LIB

Colin William George Gibson (Minister of National Revenue)

Liberal

Mr. GIBSON:

There are no grounds for that statement.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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CCF

Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):

It is only the beginning. This clause exempting cooperatives has been on the statute books since 1930 and it is only being challenged now. The same people who have challenged it in the press, in season and out of season, will begin to find other forms of economic pressure that can be brought to bear upon the cooperative movement in this country. The time has come when the cooperatives must know who are for them and who are against them. If the hon. member for Swift Current and those who sit with him are, as they say, true friends and proponents of cooperative enterprise, we shall be glad to see them on their feet saying something about taxing cooperatives rather than spending their time in attacking the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation in this house. We want more than lip-service.

The cooperatives will expect the Liberal members in this house to oppose this measure.

I want to tell them here and now that I know of no better way to have trouble in western Canada than for the government to proceed with this proposal. I want to tell them that before this session is over, we will give them an opportunity to cast their votes on this issue in order to show whether they stand with the cooperatives or with those who are seeking to destroy the cooperative movement in this country. We in the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation believe that the cooperative movement is the basis of economic democracy. We have never advocated regimentation or bureaucracy or state socialism; what we have asked for is that the common people, the workers and the farmers, should have an opportunity of owning, controlling and operating the facilities by which they live. We believe that the common people want that. We believe that the tide is running in, that all the reactionary cries of "Beware of the C.C.F." will not turn it back. I can think of no better words to sum up our position than those of Edwin Markham when he said:

Clear the way, then, clear the way,

Blind creeds and kings have their day.

Move the dead branches from out the path; Our hope is in the aftermath.

Our hope is in heroic men,

Star-led to build the world again.

To this event all ages ran;

Make way for Brotherhood, make way for Man.

At six o'clock the house took recess.

After Recess

The house resumed at eight o'clock.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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LIB

Thomas F. Donnelly

Liberal

Mr. T. F. DONNELLY (Wood Mountain):

I listened with a great deal of interest this afternoon to the hon. member for Davenport (Mr. MacNicol) speaking on the subject of prairie farm rehabilitation. I want to thank him for his kind remarks. I remember that in 1933 or 1934, rising from my seat a little to the rear, I referred to the necessity of making a survey of southern Saskatchewan in order to find out whether it should be farmed or not. I then advised the government of the day, which was led by Mr. Bennett, that if they decided that that section of the country was not fit to be farmed, the inhabitants should be moved out, and that if they decided that it was fit to be farmed they should show the farmers how to farm the land. The result was that the next year the government of the Right Hon. R. B. Bennett let a contract for two dams in the southern section, one at Eastend, I believe, and the other at Valmarie; and from that has grown up what is known as prairie farm rehabilitation. It has done a great

The Budget-Mr. Donnelly

work; it has been expanding and has expanded until we now have a great system of small dams and small dug-outs throughout Saskatchewan, helping farmers to raise stock by providing them with plenty of water.

The hon. member for Davenport wanted to know what he could do to help the government to hurry through with its programme of business. Well, I have been here the same length of time, namely thirty-seven days, as he has this session, and this is the first occasion on which I have made a speech. If the hon. member would do the same as I have done we should get through much quicker and transact a great deal more business. I believe that he has spoken six or seven times this session. If I take up forty minutes in the thirty-seven days I have been here, I shall have just about occupied all the time to which any one member is entitled. But if certain hon. members speak for forty minutes seven or eight times in the session, of course it takes a long time and the business does not go very fast.

I listened to the speech of the hon. membei for Weyburn (Mr. Douglas) this afternoon. He seems to have a word on his mind which has been there for a number of years and which to-day he used continually. I refer to the word " bogeyman." He must have used it nine or ten times to-day. I wonder whether he remembers that he also used it away back in 1937. At that time we were trying to get some estimates for national defence through the house, but we had great difficulty in doing so. Let me quote from what the hon. member said at that time, to show that, as things turned out, he was not blessed with much of the prophetic spirit. As reported in Hansard of February 19, 1937, at page 1063, he said:

Against whom are we arming? What potential aggressor is more aggressive to-day? Oh, I know that bogeymen have been trotted out in this chamber. It has been suggested that it might be Italy, it might be Germany, it might be Japan.

What a prophet!

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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CCF

Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):

Keep on

reading.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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LIB

Thomas F. Donnelly

Liberal

Mr. DONNELLY:

Yes, " keep on reading." I will read the rest some other time. I wonder whether the hon. member will prove to be any more correct with regard to this "bogeyman" of socialism than in his prophecy that there was no danger of war. We only wish that he had been a real prophet at that time, and that there had been no war. It is too bad for this country and for all the world that he was not a better prophet than he turned out to be. That is all I need say about that at the present time.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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CCF

Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):

I ask the hon. member to read the rest of what I said.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink
LIB

Thomas F. Donnelly

Liberal

Mr. DONNELLY:

The hon. member can read it in his spare time.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink
CCF

George Hugh Castleden

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. CASTLEDEN:

Are you afraid to

read it?

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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LIB

Thomas Reid

Liberal

Mr. REID:

It is just the same kind of doctrine that we heard in 1937.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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CCF

Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn,):

The time you were shipping munitions to Japan.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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LIB

Thomas F. Donnelly

Liberal

Mr. DONNELLY:

The hon. member for Weyburn made a speech a while ago and made a mess of it. Why does he not give me a chance? What kind of animal is it that does a lot of chattering?

Why are the members of that group so afraid of this word "socialism"? Out in our section of the country they are not a bit scared of it; they tell us, "That is just what we want. We are going down east and we are going to tackle these big shots, and take away their business and run it." Oh, they will come here and run all the big business in eastern Canada. I have in my hand a copy of a handbook which is distributed among the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation candidates running in Saskatchewan. It was compiled as the report of a conference held in Saskatoon and Regina on January 7 and February 11, 1933. This is what they say is their objective:

The social ownership of all resources and the machinery of wealth production to the end that we may establish a cooperative commonwealth in which the basic principle, regulating production, distribution and exchange, will be the supplying of human needs instead of the making of profits.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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?

An hon. MEMBER:

What is wrong with that?

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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LIB

Thomas F. Donnelly

Liberal

Mr. DONNELLY:

Socialization of the banking, credit and financial system of the country, together with the social ownership, development, operation and control of utilities and natural resources.

Everything in the heavens above and the earth beneath and the waters under the earth.

I quote further:

Q. "Does this political party consider that the objective so stated gives us a mandate to bring into operation socialism if elected?"

A. "Yes."

Then they find fault because we say they are socialists. I do not know why they should do so.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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March 22, 1943