July 20, 1942

NAT

Richard Burpee Hanson (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):

I should hope so. I am waiting for that resolution to come up. I have had difficulty enough to pay the tax in twelve monthly instalments. I still have two to pay on the 1941 tax, and by the way, I do not know whether I shall have it paid then, because I have not got my assessment.

I just complete paying my income tax for 1941 on August 31, and if on September 15, two weeks later, I have to pay one-quarter of my 1942 tax, I shall just be out of luck, I shall have to go to the bank'; and I cannot use my war savings certificates, of which I have tried to take the maximum every month since they started.

I wonder if the minister has not arrived at the time when he is asking the people to go as far as they can in the payment of personal income tax. I have received reams of letters of protest against the taxes under this budget. I have some of them here; I am not going to spread them on the record although I have authority to do so.

I received a letter from a young Anglican clergyman who has a parish in the province of Quebec. He receives a stipend of $1,500: he has a free rectory on which he is charged a rental valuation of $250 per annum. I doubt if it is worth that much, because it is in a small village; but he has to pay on $1,750. He has to keep a conveyance of some sort to meet his appointments-a horse in the winter, a car in the summer. He has to send his children away to school, because in his locality the schools are quite inadequate. I do not know whether the minister knows the situation in the province of Quebec, but in small communities there is quite a dearth of educational facilities under the Protestant school commisssion for children such as his.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   INCOME WAR TAX ACT
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LIB

James Lorimer Ilsley (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Liberal

Mr. ILSLEY:

How many children has he?

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   INCOME WAR TAX ACT
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NAT

Richard Burpee Hanson (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):

I think

he has two, if not three. I have not his letter with me; I wish I had; I could read it to the minister. On top of that, the clergyman of such a parish has repeated calls for a little charity. He is a "mark," if I may uSe that term of a man in his position. He has to give; he is handing out all the time. I told him I did not know what could be done for him. He is in the category of an artisan earning $150 a month, and if he is given consideration the other fellow has to be given consideration; yet he has-I say this not disparagingly toward anybody-undoubtedly a little higher standard to keep up. The only thing that I can suggest should be done for him is that he should have his rectory free of income tax.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   INCOME WAR TAX ACT
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LIB

James Lorimer Ilsley (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Liberal

Mr. ILSLEY:

That would not do.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   INCOME WAR TAX ACT
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NAT

Richard Burpee Hanson (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):

I know

the difficulties which that would create. The minister says that this budget is not increasing the burden; I submit that it has greatly increased the burden.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   INCOME WAR TAX ACT
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LIB

James Lorimer Ilsley (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Liberal

Mr. ILSLEY:

Let me tell you about this

man, when you get through.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   INCOME WAR TAX ACT
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?

An hon. MEMBER:

He gets no allowance for travelling expenses, either!

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   INCOME WAR TAX ACT
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NAT

Richard Burpee Hanson (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):

I think I

understand the innuendo. There are only a few people in this country who get their travelling expenses free of taxation. I am not going to refer to that..

Income War Tax Act

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   INCOME WAR TAX ACT
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?

An hon. MEMBER:

The dollar-a-year

men.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   INCOME WAR TAX ACT
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NAT

Richard Burpee Hanson (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):

I do not

want to refer to them at all. Here is the position of a man who seems to me to be in a pretty tight corner, but I do not know what could be done for him without a reaction clear across the country. I suggest to the minister that as far as personal income taxes are concerned this country has reached the peak. People should not be asked to make further sacrifices. I have tried to examine the figures put on the record by the hon. member for St. Antoine-Westmount (Mr. Abbott), and I must confess that the result he has arrived at is contrary to what I understood or was told was the position. I have not made any computations myself; I did not feel capable of doing it; and I have not anybody to do it for me. I am not arguing the case for the rich, but I think I am voicing the sentiment of the many thousands of people in the lower tax groups who are called upon to pay personal income taxes when I say we have reached the pinnacle of what we should do. I will tell the minister what I think he should do. I do not think he can, pay so much of the cost of this war through the present taxpayers; that the future generations for whom we are fighting will have to assume their part of the burden as well, and a larger part than they are doiyg to-day.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   INCOME WAR TAX ACT
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LIB

James Lorimer Ilsley (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Liberal

Mr. ILSLEY:

They will have plenty.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   INCOME WAR TAX ACT
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NAT

Richard Burpee Hanson (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):

We are

paying a substantial part of the expenditure on this war. The minister made great claims in days gone by as to the percentage of war costs we were paying. They were large, but as the war bill increases those percentages will decrease; and I contend that future generations, if we are to have a future at all, must sustain their part of the burden of this war, and that too much of it should not be loaded upon this generation. Frankly, I cannot pay my income tax out of my current revenue and keep up anything like the position I have had throughout my life. I am willing to cut that down; I am cutting it down now in every way I can. But there are hundreds of people in my position, and what we have to do is resort to the savings made over a long time. Well, if it has to be that, it will have to be that. But I suggest that he and his experts should explore other avenues of raising money to pay the costs of this war than taking so much through income tax.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   INCOME WAR TAX ACT
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LIB

James Lorimer Ilsley (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Liberal

Mr. ILSLEY:

In the first place I want to answer what the hon. gentleman has said about the Anglican clergyman, the young rector in

the province of Quebec. I am glad he brought that up, because it is an example of just what I am complaining about, and have been tonight, that people are afraid of this budget away beyond what is justified. That young man, if he has two children-

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   INCOME WAR TAX ACT
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NAT

Richard Burpee Hanson (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):

Three, I think.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   INCOME WAR TAX ACT
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LIB

James Lorimer Ilsley (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Liberal

Mr. ILSLEY:

I can only go on the basis of two now.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   INCOME WAR TAX ACT
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NAT

Richard Burpee Hanson (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):

Well, that will illustrate the point.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   INCOME WAR TAX ACT
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LIB

James Lorimer Ilsley (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Liberal

Mr. ILSLEY:

Let us assume he has two children and has an income of $1,750. For last year his tax was $48; for this year, under this budget, his tax is $53.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   INCOME WAR TAX ACT
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NAT

Richard Burpee Hanson (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):

Plus his savings.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   INCOME WAR TAX ACT
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LIB

James Lorimer Ilsley (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Liberal

Mr. ILSLEY:

Yes; he is paying $5 more in taxes, but in addition to that he is being asked to save $52. If he has life insurance or anything of that kind-and the probability is that he has-he can deduct that up to $50. If he has not, it will be a surprising thing. Therefore that man has gone to all the trouble of writing to the leader of the opposition, and having his case brought forward in parliament as a typical case, because he is paying, if he has two children, $5 more under this budget than he paid last year. That is exactly what I have been talking about. I have received letters from persons who said that under this budget they were crushed and could not carry on, and we have worked it out and found that they do not pay any tax. The exemptions use up the whole thing. It must be borne in mind that in the initial stages those who have been paying national defence tax get credit for the tax paid from January 1 to September on the tax they pay from September 1, which relieves their burden very considerably.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   INCOME WAR TAX ACT
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NAT

Richard Burpee Hanson (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):

Only for this year.

Topic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Subtopic:   INCOME WAR TAX ACT
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July 20, 1942