July 6, 1942

CCF

Angus MacInnis

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. MacINNIS:

Until you rule otherwise, Mr. Speaker, I am going to carry on; but if I am out of order, the hon. gentleman is rather late in drawing that fact to your attention, because a great variety of subjects has been covered during the discussion of this bill.

I have another matter to which I want to refer, one which was brought up here the other day, and which is much further removed from this discussion than the matter I have been considering. If this bill passes, the Minister of National War Services will have to administer the National Resources Mobilization Act. I am drawing attention to what

Mobilization Act-Mr. Maclnnis

is happening under his administration now. I might quote just two other short paragraphs from this letter.

The quick succession of events with regard to this man seems to indicate a definite plan to dispose of him under 'the national war services regulations, and so remove him from a field in which it was considered he was creating trouble. This, in my opinion, easts grave doubt upon the regularity of the proceedings taken in this matter.

I think that is sufficient to show that there is something seriously wrong. I have a great deal of material here in the same connection. Mr. Wright was trying to organize the employees of the ordnance plant of the Dominion Bridge company, in addition to some others. I have before me a copy of a notice sent out to all foremen and chargehands in the plant, signed by the manager or superintendent, and reading as follows:

Although apparently it has generally been felt that apart from finish machining operations it has not been a serious matter if the tolerances were exceeded, this is not the ease, as in most instances subsequent operations are dependent on the previous operation for their own accuracy.

Our apparent success in persuading the inspectors to accept material not strictly to drawing may have given the impression that the tolerances given are unnecessary. This is not so, and now we are working on many components on the finishing operations, is reflected in the fact that our rejection percentage is sharply increasing now we are having to work to closer limits.

Will you all, therefore, do your utmost to impress upon your men that these tolerances must be maintained and that a much more rigid inspection must be expected from now on.

Possibly that was what interfered with production, rather than Wright's activities. I have drawn this matter to the attention of the Minister of Munitions and Supply (Mr. Howe), who has informed me that he will have it investigated.

Topic:   MOBILIZATION ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO REPEAL SECTION 3 PROVIDING LIMITATION IN RESPECT TO SERVICE OVERSEAS
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LIB

Humphrey Mitchell (Minister of Labour)

Liberal

Mr. MITCHELL:

You have not the dodger that Wright circulated among these employees, saying that they had brought the government to terms in the National Steel Car matter? These things work both ways.

Topic:   MOBILIZATION ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO REPEAL SECTION 3 PROVIDING LIMITATION IN RESPECT TO SERVICE OVERSEAS
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CCF

Angus MacInnis

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. MacINNIS:

Is that a crime, to say that it was this organization which brought National Steel Car-

Topic:   MOBILIZATION ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO REPEAL SECTION 3 PROVIDING LIMITATION IN RESPECT TO SERVICE OVERSEAS
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LIB

Humphrey Mitchell (Minister of Labour)

Liberal

Mr. MITCHELL:

No; the government.

Topic:   MOBILIZATION ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO REPEAL SECTION 3 PROVIDING LIMITATION IN RESPECT TO SERVICE OVERSEAS
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CCF

Angus MacInnis

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. MacINNIS:

-to time? Possibly that is why the chairman of the national war services board made the statement he did in his telegram.

Topic:   MOBILIZATION ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO REPEAL SECTION 3 PROVIDING LIMITATION IN RESPECT TO SERVICE OVERSEAS
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LIB

Humphrey Mitchell (Minister of Labour)

Liberal

Mr. MITCHELL:

What I want to point out is that my hon. friend knows something about industrial organization, and he knows

that these things work both ways. Sometimes things are said on both sides which should not be said.

Topic:   MOBILIZATION ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO REPEAL SECTION 3 PROVIDING LIMITATION IN RESPECT TO SERVICE OVERSEAS
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CCF

Angus MacInnis

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. MacINNIS:

Quite right; but that is no reason to grasp a man by the collar and shove him into the army.

Topic:   MOBILIZATION ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO REPEAL SECTION 3 PROVIDING LIMITATION IN RESPECT TO SERVICE OVERSEAS
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LIB

Humphrey Mitchell (Minister of Labour)

Liberal

Mr. MITCHELL:

I am not talking about Wright; he can take care of himself. He is in the service now.

Topic:   MOBILIZATION ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO REPEAL SECTION 3 PROVIDING LIMITATION IN RESPECT TO SERVICE OVERSEAS
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CCF

Angus MacInnis

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. MacINNIS:

Quite so. That is "British principles" again. The Hon. A. M. Manson is a judge, and he should know better. In the last part of his telegram to the Minister of National War Services to which I have already referred, Mr. Manson says:

Respectfully urge you reconsider your wire and discuss with Howe and Mitchell or if need be in council. Meantime shall wait further word. Might be wise consult justice department as to powers under latter half of regulation twenty-two sub one in light of what is now fait accompli.

"Fait accompli"; wonderful words to come from the lips of a judge; the thing is done, so why bother about it. I wonder why the Minister of National War Services should have to discuss a matter of this kind with' the Minister of Labour and the Minister of Munitions and Supply.

Topic:   MOBILIZATION ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO REPEAL SECTION 3 PROVIDING LIMITATION IN RESPECT TO SERVICE OVERSEAS
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LIB

Joseph Thorarinn Thorson (Minister of National War Services)

Liberal

Mr. THORSON:

I did not have to.

Topic:   MOBILIZATION ACT
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CCF

Angus MacInnis

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. MacINNIS:

The minister did not have to, but evidently Hon. A. M. Manson discussed it with the Minister of Labour and the Minister of Munitions and Supply.

Topic:   MOBILIZATION ACT
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LIB

Humphrey Mitchell (Minister of Labour)

Liberal

Mr. MITCHELL:

I suggest to my hon. friend that his sense of fairness is running away with his discretion, because it was never discussed.

Topic:   MOBILIZATION ACT
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CCF

Angus MacInnis

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. MacINNIS:

I can only draw my own conclusions, and this smells so strong that anyone can draw conclusions with regard to it.

Topic:   MOBILIZATION ACT
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LIB

Humphrey Mitchell (Minister of Labour)

Liberal

Mr. MITCHELL:

Then I would add that my hon. friend's case smells at the moment.

Topic:   MOBILIZATION ACT
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CCF

Angus MacInnis

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. MacINNIS:

We have insisted, during this debate, that all regulations putting conscription into effect should be brought before the house. In that connection I believe we are on very sound ground. Many quotations from Hansard have been read here against us in order to show that during the last few years we have changed our opinions. Well, it is no crime for a person to change his opinion; it shows that he has an opinion to change.

I have in my hand an extract from Hansard of June 17, 1920, which I think is apropos of

Mobilization Act-Mr. Maclnnis

the matter we are discussing, namely, that the regulations should be a part of the bill and passed by this house. On that occasion the house was discussing the third reading of a bill respecting the director of coal operations, confirming a series of orders in council and orders of the coal director, and the present Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) on that occasion said, as reported, at page 3691 of Hansard:

Mr. Speaker, I should not like the third reading of this bill to pass without once again stating my objections to the measure. In the first place, as I mentioned on the second reading of the bill and in committee, it seems to me that parliament is acting blindfolded in this matter ... It is beneath the dignity of parliament-indeed, it is bringing parliament into contempt-to ask us to enact as a law a code of regulations that we have not even perused. I hope I shall never see the day when as a member of this parliament I shall be prepared to consent to any legislation without knowledge of the particulars to which it is proposed to give the force of legal enactment.

Surely, Mr. Speaker, no one could more strongly support the position which this group has taken than the Prime Minister did by that statement! He said he hoped he would never see the day when as a member of this parliament he would be prepared to consent to any legislation without knowledge of the particulars to which it was proposed to give the force of legal enactment. All I can say is that the right hon. gentleman must have lived too long, because not only has he lived to see that day but he has lived to propose that very thing to this house himself-legislation by orders in council which, as the hon. member for Riehelieu-Vercheres (Mr. Cardin) said the other day, would be kept in a drawer after they were passed.

I wish to say a few words about another matter which was mentioned in the house the other day by the hon. member for Kamloops (Mr. O'Neill), when there was an exchange of words between him and me across the floor. The hon. member said that this group in 1934 voted for a privately-owned central bank as opposed to a publicly-owned central bank. I disputed that statement, and now I want to substantiate what I said. I said there was no Cooperative Commonwealth Federation group in the house at that time; and I still maintain that, because this group did not come into the house as a group until after the elections of 1935. The position that confronted us when the Bank of Canada bill was before the house was not the choice of voting for a privately-owned bank as against a publicly-owned bank or for or against an amendment that would make it a publicly-owned bank, but of voting for a bank

over which the people of Canada would have some control as opposed to the chartered banks, and the hon. member for Kamloops and his friends voted to leave all banking to the chartered- banks.

Mr. O'NEILL: The hon. gentleman said,

"the hon. member for Kamloops and his friends." I was not in the house then.

Topic:   MOBILIZATION ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO REPEAL SECTION 3 PROVIDING LIMITATION IN RESPECT TO SERVICE OVERSEAS
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CCF

Angus MacInnis

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. MacINNIS:

Then I will say, my hon. friend's friends. I am glad of the correction. It was not the first time that he made this assertion. He made it several times in his constituency where the people have not the same access to the facts that we have in this house. When the central bank bill came before parliament in the first instance, the then member for Macleod, Mr. Coote, was at that time with the party known as the cooperating groups in this house, and he moved an amendment to refer the bill back. His amendment read:

That all the words after "that" in the main motion be struck out and the following substituted therefor:

In the opinion of this house the government should give further consideration to the matter of providing that the stock of the proposed central bank should be owned by the government and that the governor and directors of said bank should be appointed by the governor in council.

Mr. Rhodes, who was piloting the bill through the house, took exception to the amendment and was supported by the present Prime Minister, who was then leader of the opposition. Mr. Rhodes said:

I am sorry that I am not in a position to say the same to the hon. member for Macleod (Mr. Coote) who has, I respectfully submit, failed to appreciate the distinction between a debate upon the principle of a bill and the question of the details of a bill, however important or vital they may be, because the fact remains that at the moment the principle which we are discussing is: shall we have a central bank ?

Mr. Mackenzie King: And that is the only principle.

Evidently, to the leader of the opposition at that time and his party, whether the bank should be privately or publicly owned was merely a matter of detail.

Mr. O'NEILL: Mr. Coote voted against you, though, and with the leader of the opposition, the, present Prime Minister.

Topic:   MOBILIZATION ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO REPEAL SECTION 3 PROVIDING LIMITATION IN RESPECT TO SERVICE OVERSEAS
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CCF

Angus MacInnis

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. MacINNIS:

Quite so. Now I want to-

Topic:   MOBILIZATION ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO REPEAL SECTION 3 PROVIDING LIMITATION IN RESPECT TO SERVICE OVERSEAS
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LIB

Thomas Vien (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER:

The hon. gentleman has spoken for forty minutes.

Topic:   MOBILIZATION ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO REPEAL SECTION 3 PROVIDING LIMITATION IN RESPECT TO SERVICE OVERSEAS
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CCF

Major James William Coldwell

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. COLDWELL:

No, Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. member has another five minutes.

44561-250J

Mobilization Act-Mr. Whitman

Topic:   MOBILIZATION ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO REPEAL SECTION 3 PROVIDING LIMITATION IN RESPECT TO SERVICE OVERSEAS
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LIB

Thomas Vien (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER:

I took the time when the hon. gentleman began. When I called the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Michaud) to order, it was exactly ten minutes past five o'clock.

Topic:   MOBILIZATION ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO REPEAL SECTION 3 PROVIDING LIMITATION IN RESPECT TO SERVICE OVERSEAS
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July 6, 1942