March 24, 1942

MOBILIZATION OF MAN-POWER TABLING OF ORDERS IN COUNCIL GIVING EFFECT' TO GOVERNMENT POLICY

LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Prime Minister; Secretary of State for External Affairs; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):

Mr. Speaker, it was

announced last night that I would to-day make a statement concerning measures recently adopted giving additional effect to the government's policy with respect to the mobilization of man-power. In that connection I have in my hand a number of orders in council which have recently been passed with respect to the mobilization of man-power, and I should like to table them. The orders are in English and French. I might cite the various orders:

P.C. 2250, March 21, 1942, restricting the entry of men of military age into certain occupations.

P.C. 2251, March 21, 1942, stabilization of employment in agriculture regulations, 1942.

P.C. 2252, March 21, 1942, amendments of national war services regulations, 1940 (recruits) (consolidation), 1941.

P.C. 2253, March 21, 1942, transfer of national registration functions, records, etc., from Department of National War Services to Department of Labour.

P.C. 2254, March 21, 1942, providing for the appointment of a Director and Associate Director of National Selective Service, and the establishment of a National Selective Service Advisory Board.

P.C. 2192, March 21, 1942, authorizing a proclamation for the calling out of additional classes for military training.

P.C. 22*29, March 23, 1942, providing for the reconditioning of certain classes of physically unfit persons ("R") recruits.

P.C. 2291, March 23, 1942, providing for the reconditioning of other classes of physically unfit persons (active service personnel).

PC. 2301, March 23, 1942, appointing

E. M. Little, Esquire, Director of National Selective Service, and Paul Goulet, Esquire, Associate Director of National Selective Service.

P.C. 1445, March 2, 1942, authorizing the Minister of Labour to establish and1 maintain an inventory of employable persons.

P.C. 638, March 4, 1942, essential work (scientific and technical personnel) regulations, 1942.

P.C. 26/1840, March 10, 1942, providing for extension and improvement of training in

.

personnel management, for the appointment of a director of personnel training, and for the appointment of personnel managers.

P.C. 1955, March 13, 1942, providing for the reregistration of persons under unemployment insurance.

These orders are important, and I imagine hon. members will wish to refer to them from time to time. If the house will give its consent I suggest that they be printed as an appendix to the Votes and Proceedings of to-day.

Topic:   MOBILIZATION OF MAN-POWER TABLING OF ORDERS IN COUNCIL GIVING EFFECT' TO GOVERNMENT POLICY
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NATIONAL SELECTIVE SERVICE-MEANS OF EFFECTING INCREASED MOBILIZATION OF MAN-POWER


Mr. Speaker, the speech from the throne at the opening of the present session of parliament contained the following paragraph: The government's policy of national selective service will be extended, as generally and rapidly as may be necessary to effect the orderly and efficient employment of the men and women of Canada for the varied purposes of war. You will be advised of the means the government proposes to adopt to effect as complete as possible a mobilization of the material resources and man-power of the country in direct furtherance of a total national effort. I propose in the statement I am now about to make to set forth means the government proposes to adopt to effect increased mobilization of the man-power of the country in direct furtherance of a total national effort, and to outline the measures themselves as already adopted. Modern total war is not confined to the struggle between opposing armies and navies and air forces. It is a struggle between whole peoples, in which all of each nation's resources, both human and material, must be mobilized and brought into action. It is therefore a misconception to assume that the war-time man-power problem is merely a problem of raising men for the armed forces. This is only a part, and not necessarily the most difficult part, of the problem of mobilizing the manpower of a nation for modern war. Man-power-and in that term I include woman-power-is required for many and varied tasks. In the first place, essential civilian services must be maintained as the foundation of community life on which the war effort rests. These essential tasks are a form of service just as truly as making munitions or serving in the armed forces. In order, however, to free younger men for direct war service, civilian tasks, as far as may be possible, should be performed by older men or by women. The production of food, in war time, is one of the most essential civilian tasks. To the extent that food is produced for Britain, or Mobilization of Man-Power other allied countries, or for Canada's own fighting men, it is a direct war service. If this aspect of Canada's total effort is not to suffer, the man-power required for food production must be kept available. The man-power requirements for munitions production must also be filled. Some 600.000 workers are already engaged in the production of munitions. It is estimated that in the course of the next twelve months an additional 100.000 workers will be required. In the armed forces our estimated requirements for the ensuing twelve months are a further 13,000 men for the navy, 90,000 to 100.000 for the active army, and 70,000 to 80.000 for the air force. These figures were given to parliament on February 10th by the Minister of National Defence. In addition, men will continue to be called up for military service within Canada; and this on a considerably increased scale. When, on January 26th, I announced the war programme for the coming year, I stated that the men and women required to carry out the programme would be mobilized by an extension of the application of national selective service. It might be helpful were I to repeat the definition I then gave of national selective service as understood by the government. By national service is meant any form of service, either voluntary or compulsory, which contributes directly to Canada's war effort. By national selective service is meant the selection of men and women for the various forms of national service according to the method or methods calculated to produce the most satisfactory results. ' In order to be selective, national service does not necessarily need to be compulsory. The selective aspect applies also to voluntary service. The army, for example, does not accept every man who offers to enlist. As a war measure, compulsion is only of value where it serves to ensure a greater total effort. In speaking on the war programme in January, I made it clear that the extended application of compulsion to national selective service -was a highly complicated matter, one which required very careful planning and organization. I also stated that, to carry out the proposed measures equitably and efficiently, the administrative machinery would necessarily be intricate and complicated. Final responsibility for the allocation of man-power, as for all other phases of our war programme, necessarily rests with the war committee of the cabinet. The war committee determines, in all its aspects, the scope and extent of the war programme. The distribution of men and women among the various kinds of war sendee obviously depends upon the war programme. The objectives are set forth in the programme. National selective service is a method employed to help achieve these objectives. To the problems of mobilizing man-power, the war committee has given close and continuous attention. Under the authority of the war committee, a special committee of the cabinet on man-power, presided over by the Minister of National War Services, has given detailed study to the problems involved. The recommendations of this committee have in turn been carefully considered by the whole cabinet. I shall now set forth the procedures and measures which have been taken to organize and administer the government's policy of national selective service. The primary responsibility for the extended scheme of national selective service has been placed upon the Minister of Labour. Under the Minister of Labour, the administrative responsibility for the direction and coordination of the policy has been vested in a director of national selective service and an associate director. Mr. Elliott M. Little has been appointed the Director of National Selective Service, and Mr. Paul Goulet, the Associate Director. The responsibility for increasing the total man-power available for war service has been largely centred in the Department of Labour. It would not, however, be possible, even if it were desirable, to centralize in one department of government all the administrative responsibility for allocating man-power, and for directing men and women into the most useful form of service. The other departments of government which share in greater or less degree in the tasks of making man-power available for war service and in the allocation of the available man-power are the departments of National War Services, Pensions and National Health, Munitions and Supply, Agriculture, and the three Defence departments. The interdepartmental committee on labour coordination, on which all these departments are represented, assists in coordinating the functions of the various departments, in so far as they relate to the mobilization of man-power. The committee has been strengthened by the addition of the employer and employee representatives on the executive of the national war labour board. A national selective service advisory board has been established to advise on major questions of policy. This board includes, in addition to the members of the labour coordination committee, the full membership



Mobilization oj Man-Power



of the national war labour board and such other persons as the Minister of Labour may designate. This latter provision will ensure the representation on the board of the agricultural community and of women. In the programme of national selective service, extensive use is being made of the facilities of the Employment Service of Canada. In each area covered by an employment and claims office of the Unemployment Insurance Commission the director of national selective service will shortly appoint a national selective service officer. The national selective service officers will have local charge of the administration of the selective service programme for their respective areas. They will be advised and assisted in their work by voluntary unpaid citizens' committees which will be set up in each of the areas. A central registry has been established in the Department of Labour to aid in promptly finding the appropriate men and women needed at any particular time. The registry is based upon the unemployment insurance records, and the records of the 1940 national registration. To the registry will be added the records of such further surveys of manpower as may be made from time to time, with a view to building up a complete inventory of man-power available for war and essential civilian purposes. To consolidate records and to avoid duplication, the administrative responsibility for national registration has been transferred from the Department of National War Services to the Department of Labour. Under the programme now adopted, the mobilization of industrial man-power will, in the main, be effected through the agency of the Employment Service of Canada. The armed forces will continue to recruit men for the active army, the navy and the air force by the present voluntary methods. The calling up of men for compulsory military training and service will continue to be the responsibility of the Department of National War Services. Compulsion is now being applied in aspects of the mobilization of man-power, other than military service within Canada, to which it has been applied since October, 1940. It is recognized that no hard and fast compulsory regulations can be made which may not work injustices in individual cases. As a consequence, considerable discretion has been vested in the national war services boards to decide appeals from the compulsory or restrictive regulations of the government, and from the orders of the director of national selective service and the national selective service officers. The right of appeal will be enjoyed, not only by employers; employees, farmers, farm labourers and others directly affected, but also by interested government departments. The duty of hearing civilian appeals will add greatly to the work of the national war services boards, now mainly concerned with the appeals of men called up for military service. In order to cope with the increased duties which will fall upon the boards, it may become necessary to increase their number and in some cases to divide their territorial jurisdictions. The war-time mobilization of man-power has three important aspects: 1. Estimating the number of men and women required for the different kinds of war service. 2. Increasing the total man-power resources available for war purposes. In other words, making available for some part in the war effort the largest possible number of men and women. 3. Directing the available men and women into the most useful form of war service. All of these tasks have to be carried on at one and the same time, and, in part at least, through the same channels. The whole programme is interrelated and interdependent. I shall now give a brief outline of each of the measures, indicating, as far as possible, how each relates to and affects the other. Estimating the number of men and women needed in the war effort, and the most effective distribution of the total among the armed services, war industry and essential civilian pursuits, is a difficult task. A constantly changing war necessitates constant changes in military and production plans. These changes, in turn, involve continuous revision of the estimates of man-power requirements, and the proposed allocation of man-power reserves. To this end, the director of national selective service has been given authority to obtain information from government departments, and empowered to secure from employers, by compulsion if necessary, full information, regarding prospective labour requirements, existing labour forces, wage scales and working conditions. In the early months of the war, there were large reserves of available man-power for war service because of the unemployment and under-employment of many thousands of Canadians. If we except women who, for domestic or social reasons, have not desired or sought employment, we are now well past the stage where there is any considerable reserve of employable unemployed persons. Women, therefore, constitute the most important available reserve of man-power. It is, however, not so much by bringing women directly into the armed forces, though that is being done, that the total man-power available for war service can actually be increased; rather is this end accomplished by the substitution of women for men in essential civilian tasks, and in war industry. Additional man-power is becoming potentially available for war service as an indirect result of the curtailment of civilian production. To the achievement of a maximum effort, it is vital that man-power thus released be shifted as speedily and efficiently as possible into some form of war service. The process of shifting man-power from civilian occupations into war service has, of course, gone on steadily since the outbreak of war. It has now been given more definite governmental direction and is being accelerated. For more than a year, the Department of Labour, in cooperation with the provinces and industry, has been increasing the man-power available through training men and women for employment in war industries. During the past year, more than 60,000 trainees received instruction in about one hundred technical schools. Industries cooperating with the Department of Labour, and often on their own initiative, trained at least an equal number. Through the Department of Labour services, and directly in industry, greater provision is now being made for training and retraining men for essential war production; for diluting present working forces by employment of men of lesser skill for simpler operations; and for the constant up-grading, as a result of training and experience, of existing working forces. The programme of increasing war-time manpower reserves has a threefold objective: First, to increase the total male labour force available for war production. Second, to make possible the replacement of able-bodied men of military age with older men, or men less fit physically for arduous tasks. Third, to increase war-time man-power reserves by .bringing women into industry. This is the most important single feature of the programme. The first two objectives are being accelerated by governmental and industrial assistance. The assistance is similar in character, although on a smaller scale, to that being afforded for recruiting female labour. The series of measures being undertaken to bring women into industries include: Mobilization oj Man-Power 1. Recruiting campaigns, planned and publicized to attract women into the needed work; 2. The provision of appropriate and adequate facilities for interviewing women applicants and for giving them advice and direction; 3. The establishment of competent job information and placement services, specializing in female labour; 4. Advances, where necessary, to meet trasnportation costs in getting women workers to places where work is available; 5. The provision of hostels or other satisfactory housing arrangements; 6. The provision of nurseries and other means of caring for children; 7. The provision, where needed, of medical and recreational facilities; 8. The provision in industry, as well as under direct governmental auspices, of training programmes, specifically designed for women; 9. Pressure upon employers who may be reluctant to engage female labour; 10. Changes in civil service and institutional restrictions on the employment of female, and, particularly, married female labour. Some of these measures have already been applied over a considerable period of time. From now on, they will be more extensively applied. An important phase of the man-power problem has to do with providing in war industries the necessary supervisory personnel. It has been found that, as war industries continue to expand, it is increasingly difficult to secure sufficient supervisors, personnel managers, and foremen, to direct the enlarged work forces. Many plants producing urgently needed war materials are now operating day and night, seven days in the week. Others that might be operating on the same basis are hampered by lack of supervisors. A recent statement by Mr. Bevin on the importance of personnel factors in war production in Great Britain is equally applicable to Canada. It reads: In the layout of our war effort, sufficient attention was not paid to the personnel problem. . . . The longer the war goes on, the more necessary it becomes to pay greater regard to this personnel side of industry. The absence of a proper understanding of the problem has been one of our greatest handicaps in this great struggle. . . . Hence my additional plea for the personnel manager, who should be specially trained to have an equal position in industry with others members of the executive. Indeed, I am sure-and I would emphasize this-that our post-war position will be materially helped. Mobilization oj Man-Power



and the future prospects of British industry enhanced, by a full appreciation of this important fact. To assist our Canadian employers to meet their personnel problem, provision has been made by the government for training in personnel management. The universities have agreed to cooperate. Experienced personnel men will serve as instructors and sponsors. Trainees will be given practical instruction in the classroom, and on the job. If the experience of this undertaking warrants, these facilities will be extended to foremen and other supervisors. It is hoped by this means greatly to reduce an important area of *difficulty in war production. Moreover, better personnel policies and practice should minimize friction between management and men, improve morale, and thereby increase output. The government is also undertaking an extended programme of reconditioning men to fit them physically for military service. It is and has been standard practice for the army to accept men for service who require only dental treatment, provision of glasses, or nutritional improvement. After enlistment or enrolment, treatment is provided for these men as a matter of routine. There are, however, men volunteering for the active army, or called up for training and service, who at present have to be rejected because of some condition other than those just mentioned, and which, though not a serious disability, is important enough to require more than routine treatment. It has been decided that when disabilities of this class are mendable within a comparatively short time, free remedial treatment will be provided to restore the standard of physical fitness of these men. Such a policy is in the interests of the armed services and also of benefit to the health of the nation as a whole. Free treatment will be available to those who volunteer and undertake in writing to enlist as soon as they are physically eligible, provided they are certified by a competent board to be cases in which the disability can be removed or mended by treatment so as to make them physically fit for enlistment within a specified reasonable period. Free treatment will also be available to those who are called up for compulsory training and service provided it is similarly certified, as in the case of volunteers, that the disability is such that it can be removed or mended within a specified reasonable period. When the treatment is successfully completed, these men will be available for military training and service. In giving treatment, the Departments of National Defence, Pensions and National £Mr. Mackenzie King.] Health, and National War Services, will cooperate. The treatment, both for volunteers and for men called up for training and service, will be provided or arranged for by the Department of Pensions and National Health. In neither case will men undergoing treatment be accepted into the army unless, and until, the treatment has been successfully completed. In both cases, in addition to free treatment and, if necessary, hospitalization, men undergoing treatment will be paid an allowance for time actually and necessarily lost during the remedial period. It should be added that free treatment on precisely the same terms as in the case of volunteers for the active army, will be provided for men who volunteer for the air force, and would now be rejected for physical unfitness. Until recently, the most important form of direct compulsion in mobilizing men has been the compulsory military training and service of unmarried men and of widowers without children. This, of course, is being continued, although with certain changes in the selective procedure. A proclamation is being issued making liable to call for military training and service all men born in the years from 1912 to 1921, who on July 15, 1940, were unmarried or widowers without children. In other words, the age limit for compulsory service has been raised from 24 to 30. It has also been decided to select the men to be called up for service by drawing lots over the whole field of those who are subject to the proclamation. As soon as the necessary administrative arrangements have been worked out for this plan of selection by lot, a detailed announcement will be made by the Minister of National War Services. Liability for compulsory military service is, at present, confined to citizens of Canada. It has been decided to extend this liability to all residents of Canada, whether citizens or not, as far as may be expedient in the light of all the circumstances. As reciprocal arrangements and other international considerations are involved in the proposal, its details cannot be announced immediately. The liability to compulsory military service will continue to be general for the age categories affected. The burden of demonstrating the case for postponements is unchanged1, except in the case of persons wholly or mainly employed in agriculture on March 23, 1942, as defined in the amended national war services regulations. One of the man-power problems with which the country is faced is the growing shortage Mobilization of Man-Power of agricultural labour. Means, accordingly, have had to be devised to ensure that the supply of farm labour is not depleted. To that end, regulations have been enacted to stabilize employment in agriculture. With three exceptions, the regulations provide that no male person wholly or mainly employed in agriculture on March 23, 1942, as defined by the regulations shall enter into any employment outside agriculture unless he has obtained written permission from the national selective service officer to enter such employment. They also provide that no person shall take into employment outside agriculture, any male person wholly or mainly employed in agriculture unless such male person has obtained such permission. The three exceptions provided for are active service in the armed forces by voluntary enlistment, seasonal employment in a primary industry, and compulsory military training if it is established that the person concerned is not an essential worker in agriculture. . The exception of seasonal employment in other primary industries, which include lumbering, logging, forestry, fishing and trapping is, in reality, not an exception. In many parts of the country, agriculture and the primary pursuits specified are complementary aspects of what is, in effect, a single occupation. The other specific exceptions both relate to service in the armed forces. Voluntary enlistment of farmers and agricultural workers in the active army, the navy and the air forces will continue to be encouraged. It is felt that the privilege of serving voluntarily in the armed forces should not be completely denied to a whole class of the community, however important may be the service its members are at present performing. On the other hand, the growing scarcity of labour on the farms and the increasing importance of maintaining, and, indeed, of increasing food production, has been recognized. This has been accomplished by a fundamental alteration of the policy regarding compulsory military training and service where such service touches persons wholly or mainly employed in agriculture. Up to the present there has been a general obligation to serve, and the responsibility for proving a case for postponement of service has rested with the individual. Under the new regulations, farmers, farmers' sons and agricultural labourers will normally not be obliged to undertake compulsory military training and service. It is realized, however, that in a limited number of cases, men on the farms are not, in fact, essential agricultural workers. If it is established to the satisfaction of the national war services boards concerned that such persons are not essential workers in agriculture, they will continue to be called for service in the appropriate age groups. This change of policy regarding compulsory military service applies only to those who were wholly or mainly employed in agriculture, on March 23, 1942, in accordance with the terms of the regulations. Persons who subsequent to that date may return to employment in agriculture, except from normal seasonal occupations, will continue to be liable for military service. In such cases, the earlier regulations regarding postponement will continue to apply. Apart from the three specified exceptions to the rule that persons engaged in agriculture shall not enter into other employment, the regulations also empower the national selective service officer, having jurisdiction in the district in which a person resides, to give permission to farmers and agricultural workers to enter other employment. This provision has been included in the regulations so as to maintain a reasonable degree of flexibility in policy. It is recognized that there may be those engaged in agricultural pursuits, who, because of the limited character of their production or on other grouncjs, are not performing an essential war service. At the same time, such persons, because of age or physical condition, or for other reasons, may not be suitable for military service. Unless the way were left open for such persons to move into other fields of activity, great individual hardships might result, and valuable sendee in other fields be lost to the country. It will, therefore, be open to farmers and others engaged in agricultural work, who desire to enter some other field of employment, to apply to the national selective service officer, having jurisdiction in the district in which they reside, for permission to change their employment. Detailed regulations to guide national selective service officers in determining whether such permission shall be granted or refused will be made and revised from time to time in the light of experience. Two governing factors will be taken into account in determining these regulations, namely, the maintenance of the necessary agricultural production in Canada, and the extent to which the applicant is essential to-the maintenance of such production. The policy of stabilizing employment in agriculture represents what, in effect, is a block allocation to agriculture of the persons best fitted for food production. It constitutes a form of large scale selection for national Mobilization of Man-Power



service which should go far to ensure the supply of man-power essential to the food production aspect of the national war effort. Another step in the allocation of man-power recently taken, relates to the diversion of technicians to war service. It concerns persons normally engaged in the engineering profession as civil, mechanical, electrical, chemical, metallurgical or mining engineers; also production and industrial engineers, college teachers of engineering science, persons trained in any branch of the science of chemistry, research scientists and persons other than teachers holding university degrees in engineering, chemistry, physics, geology, mathematics, architecture, or in any natural science; also all technically qualified members of the Engineering Institute of Canada, the Canadian Institute of Chemistry, the Canadian Institute of Mining and Metallurgy, the Royal Architectural Institute of Canada and of any provincial association of professional engineers, chemists or architects. About a year ago, with the aid of the professional engineering societies, there was established in the Department of Labour a war-time bureau of technical personnel. The bureau has accumulated information on most of the professional engineers of the country. It has sought to make engineers available as needed in the armed services and in war industry. The time has come, when in the opinion of the government, all technical men should be shifted from non-essential activities to war or other essential services. Under regulations at present in force, if, at the request of the Minister of Labour an engineer is willing to transfer to more essential work, his present employer is obliged to release him and to reinstate him when his undertaking on essential work is completed. Employers who hire or release technical employees are required to notify the bureau so that technical men as needed in the war effort may be quickly located. Contracts of employment for the services of technicians require the approval of the Minister of Labour. This measure is restricted for the present to professional technicians. It may, however, become necessary as an essential war service, also to require skilled workmen in certain categories, to remain in their existing occupations in war industries, or to move from one war industry to another, or to remain in certain [DOT]essential civilian occupations. Should such widespread control become necessary, every [DOT]effort will be made to reduce its arbitrary aspects to a minimum, and to secure, from workmen and employers alike, the largest measure of voluntary cooperation. In order to increase the numbers of men available for service in the armed forces, in war industry, or in other essential occupations, regulations have been made which prohibit the entry into employment in a wide variety of occupations, of men who are of military age and physically fit. These occupations will be known in future as restricted occupations. The regulations include a schedule of the restricted occupations. The schedule comprises: Bookkeepers, cashiers, stenographers, tyists, clerks, office appliance operators, messengers, salesmen and sales clerks, taxicab drivers. Any occupation in wholesale or retail trade, advertising, and real estate. Any occupation in, or directly associated with, entertainment, recreational or personal service, including but not restricted to theatres; film agencies; motion picture companies; clubs; bowling alleys; pool rooms; sports; barbering and hairdressing: domestic service; dyeing; cleaning and pressing; laundering; hotels and lodging houses; baths; restaurants; cafes and taverns; shoe shining, guide service, and funeral service. Any occupation in the manufacture or production of 1. Biscuits, confectionery, cocoa. 2. Bread and bakery products. 3. Aerated and mineral waters and other beverages. 4. Liquors, wines, beer. 5. Rubber products. 6. Tobacco, cigars, cigarettes. 7. Leather and fur products. 8. Textile products. 9. Furniture and upholstering. 10. Photography. 11. Printing, publishing and engraving. 12. Radios, refrigerators, washing machines, and vacuum cleaners. 13. Jewellery and watchmaking. 14. Pottery and china. 15. Soaps, and toilet preparations and articles. 16. Mattresses. 17. Musical instruments. 18. Barber and beauty shop equipment. 19. Cameras and films. 20. Sporting goods. 21. Games, toys and novelties. Any occupation in the repair of clotliiqg, boots and shoes, furniture and household equipment, jewellery or watches, musical instruments. It is provided that, on and after March 23, 1942, no male person shall accept employment, and no employer shall engage any male person in any of these restricted occupations, unless such person presents to the prospective employer a birth certificate or other incontrovertible evidence that his age is less than seventeen or more than forty-five years; or a certificate of honourable discharge from the armed forces; or evidence of rejection on grounds of physical unfitness for active service Canteen Funds in the armed forces during the present war; or a permit from a national selective service officer authorizing him to accept such employment. The conditions which govern the granting or refusing of permission by national selective service officers are to be made, and may be revised from time to time, by the Minister of Labour. Permits are necessarily subject to cancellation at any time. The Minister of Labour is authorized to require employers to furnish reports about all persons engaged for or released from restricted occupations. The governor in council is empowered to amend the schedule of restricted occupations, by the deletion or addition of any occupation. By applying the negative compulsion of restriction, where possible, in preference to the positive compulsion of allocation, the waste of man-power in unessential activities is prevented. At the same time, men and women are maintained in or directed into the form of service they prefer. It is obvious that the greater the measure of willingness that can be preserved, the more effective the service will be. May I say, in conclusion, while the government has not hesitated and will not hesitate to apply compulsion where compulsion will serve to increase the total war effort, the government has no desire to add unduly -which means wastefully-to governmental machinery. It is essential that at a time of war, the services of men and women should not be consumed in unnecessary tasks. It is imperative that the services of all should be directed into war-time tasks. In those aspects of our war effort in which voluntary methods are working satisfactorily, voluntary selection, including a measure of choice by the individual of the appropriate field of service, has been and will be continued. The more expensive and complicated methods of compulsion have been employed only where it is felt that compulsory selection is necessary in order to increase efficiency in the prosecution of the war. Compulsion, however, will be applied without fear or favour wherever in the opinion of the government its use will aid in the achievement of a maximum war effort.


CANTEEN FUNDS

APPOINTMENT OF SELECT COMMITTEE TO INQUIRE INTO COLLECTION, CUSTODY, INVESTMENT AND CONTROL


Hon. IAN A. MACKENZIE (Minister of Pensions and National Health) moved: Whereas it was deemed necessary after the war of 1914-18 to provide legislation for the disposal of canteen funds and the purposes for which such funds were to be utilized for the benefit of ex-servicemen and their dependents; And whereas by order in council dated December 20, 1940, P.C. 7520 (as amended by P.C. 224 of January 13, 1941, P.C. 1087 of February 14, 1941, and P.C. 1959 of March 24, 1941), a committee was constituted to inquire into and make recommendations and report to the Minister of National Defence concerning the collection, custody, investment, control and utilization of moneys accruing from the profits of canteens, and certain other related matters as set out in the said orders in council; and whereas the said committee has reported to the Minister of National Defence under date the 30th August, 1941, and has made certain recommendations with regard to the matters referred to it as aforesaid; And whereas a subcommittee of the general advisory committee on demobilization and rehabilitation, namely the subcommittee on the administration of special funds has made an investigation and an interim report with reference to the administration of canteen funds following the war of 1914-18, to which is added the comment of the subcommittee thereon and certain recommendations as to the use of canteen profits for the welfare of ex-members of the armed forces of Canada in the present war; And whereas it is considered desirable in the public interest that the collection, custody and control of canteen funds and the purpose for which they are to be used should be examined, considered and reported on by a committee of the house; Therefore be it resoved:-That a select committee of the house be appointed to inquire into the collection, custody, investment and control of such moneys as under existing regulations and agreements accrue out of the profits arising from the operation of canteens and other auxiliary services and institutes for the benefit of the armed forces of Canada during the present war; and as to whether certain portions of the profits arising from canteens other than the portions of profits for w'hich provision is now made should be paid to the government of Canada; and the policy and method of management to be adopted in the utilization of the said funds for the benefit of those who have served in the Canadian armed forces and for the benefit of the dependents of such persons; and to report to the house their opinions, observations and recommendations thereon; and to recommend to the house the appropriate legislation to implement such recommendations as the committee may make. That the committee shall consist of the following members: Messrs. Abbott, Adamson, Black (Yukon), Blanchette, Booth, Brooks, Bruce, Castleden, Chambers. Claxton, Cleaver, Cruickshank, Diefenbaker, Emmerson, Factor, Fauteux, Ferron, Gillis, Graham, Gray, Green, Halle, Harris (Grey-Bruce), Hazen, Isnor, Jackman, Johnston (London), Jutras, Lapointe (Matapedia-Matane), Lapointe (Lotbiniere), Macdonald (Kingston City), Macdonald (Halifax), Macdonald (Brantford City), MacKenzie (Neepawa), Mackenzie (Vancouver Centre), Macmillan, McCuaig, McLean (Simcoe East), Marshall, Massey, Mutch, Quelch, Ross (Middlesex East), Ross (Souris), Sanderson, Sinclair, Sylvestre, Tomlinson, Tremblay, Tucker, Turgeon, White, Whitman, Winkler, Wright, and that Canteen Funds



standing order 65 be suspended in relation thereto; that the committee shall have power to send for persons and records and report from time to time.


NAT

Richard Burpee Hanson (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Hon. R. B. HANSON (Leader of the Opposition):

I should like to offer two brief comments on this resolution. The first is that I believe the thanks of this house are due to the committee which was established by order in council to investigate the custody, control and investment of canteen funds, which committee was headed by a very distinguished and public-spirited Canadian, Mr. J. M. Macdonnell.

The other comment which I wish to make is to suggest that this is subject matter which might perhaps well be referred to the other chamber for investigation, having regard to the great number of special committees which are being set up in this house, and the strain upon some of our membership, especially those who are returned soldiers. At the moment I do not think there is any real necessity for this matter to be considered by a committee of this house, and in my view it would present an opportunity for members of the other chamber to engage in very useful work. I believe it is almost a national disgrace that the great talents and abilities of members of the other house are not being put to public service at this time. If there is any particular reason why this matter should be investigated by a committee of the house of course I shall not press this point; but I offer the suggestion to the minister and to the government for their serious consideration.

Topic:   CANTEEN FUNDS
Subtopic:   APPOINTMENT OF SELECT COMMITTEE TO INQUIRE INTO COLLECTION, CUSTODY, INVESTMENT AND CONTROL
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LIB

Ian Alistair Mackenzie (Minister of Pensions and National Health)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):

The suggestion offered by my hon. friend has not been brought to my attention before. The committee suggested consists of all hon. members who served in the great war and who are on active service in the present war. It vras felt that the two reports submitted to the government, one by the subcommittee of the general committee on demobilization and rehabilitation, the other by the committee headed by the gentleman to whom my hon. friend has referred-and I wish to support his commendation of the excellent work done by that committee-indicated that this work could be best done by members of this house.

IV e have frequently heard the comment from some of our members that sufficient work is not given them during the ordinary course of the session. I believe that a non-partisan committee, such as here suggested, is the best form of committee to deal with this important problem. Hon. members will recall that this matter came up in parliament after the last war, at which time about $2,500,000 was made

available for disposition. Trustees were appointed in various provinces, and in some of those provinces there were unfortunate occurrences with regard to these funds.

It is therefore the desire of the government to place this matter before parliament and the house, and I have no doubt whatsoever that means could be found to ask hon. members of the other chamber to cooperate with this committee, if they so desire, in the work of the committee. I believe the resolution should commend itself to everyone in the house. To my mind it is most important to see to it that the benefits from these funds, which accrue in various ways

in the first place through dry canteens and wet canteens in this country-should accrue so far as possible to the men themselves, and that any investments to be made should be made for the benefit of those who are serving the country at the present time.

I shall be very glad to see if a method can be w'orked out by which cooperation with the other chamber can be secured, as has been suggested by the leader of the opposition.

Topic:   CANTEEN FUNDS
Subtopic:   APPOINTMENT OF SELECT COMMITTEE TO INQUIRE INTO COLLECTION, CUSTODY, INVESTMENT AND CONTROL
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NAT

Richard Burpee Hanson (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):

The minister referred to abuses. Were there any prosecutions following those abuses?

Topic:   CANTEEN FUNDS
Subtopic:   APPOINTMENT OF SELECT COMMITTEE TO INQUIRE INTO COLLECTION, CUSTODY, INVESTMENT AND CONTROL
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LIB

Ian Alistair Mackenzie (Minister of Pensions and National Health)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):

That would be a matter of provincial jurisdiction, because all the trustees were created by the provinces.

Topic:   CANTEEN FUNDS
Subtopic:   APPOINTMENT OF SELECT COMMITTEE TO INQUIRE INTO COLLECTION, CUSTODY, INVESTMENT AND CONTROL
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SC

John Horne Blackmore

Social Credit

Mr. J. H. BLACKMORE (Lethbridge):

Mr. Speaker, I am not sure that this is the occasion on which to make suggestions, but I have two suggestions to make to the committee. The first is that the money accruing from canteen funds should be made available to help the men by reducing the cost of their going home on furlough, especially the last furlough before embarking for overseas. A good many of our men are sent, we will say, from western Canada to Nova Scotia, or to some other distant part of Canada, and they often find that before embarkation they are unable to pay their fares home. I therefore make the suggestion that this money be used for that purpose.

There is another point which to my mind deserves consideration. I heartily agree with the minister when he says that this money should be used in the interests of the men. One way in which it could be used for the benefit of the men would be to have it meet the cost of insurance.

Topic:   CANTEEN FUNDS
Subtopic:   APPOINTMENT OF SELECT COMMITTEE TO INQUIRE INTO COLLECTION, CUSTODY, INVESTMENT AND CONTROL
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LIB

Charles Gavan Power (Associate Minister of National Defence; Minister of National Defence for Air; Minister of National Defence for Air and Associate Minister of National Defence)

Liberal

Hon. C. G. POWER (Minister of National Defence for Air):

Mr. Speaker, I would remind the house of the difficulties that arose after the last war through the accumulation of

Canteen Funds

canteen funds, when no one seemed to have any definite idea as to just what useful purpose these funds could serve. At the close of the last war there had been accumulated from canteens in Canada and overseas something like $2,500,000. As time went on, in the minds of returned soldiers this sum grew, like the proverbial snowball, into a sum that they thought might represent $100,000,000. There was not a meeting of ex-soldier organizations from which suggestions did not emanate as to the uses to which these funds should be put. Finally, after a great deal of controversy in this house, in the upper chamber and in the country, the matter was referred to what was known as the Ralston commission. My hon. friend who is now Minister of National Defence (Mr. Ralston) toured the country to study the matter of canteen funds, as well as a large number of other matters affecting returned soldiers. Associated with him were Lieutenant-Colonel Dubuc and Colonel Walter McKeown. His report was hailed1 at that time as the magna charta of returned soldiers. Many features of it were translated into legislation, and among others was his recommendation with respect to canteen funds.

A feature of the recommendation was that the funds should be divided into provincial funds on the basis of the enlistments from each province. Canteen funds legislation was passed by this parliament, but it provided that canteen funds under the supervision of trustees should be set up in each province. In any event they were set up somehow, under the authority of the provincial government. Distribution was made in accordance with the views of the trustees. For instance I recall that in some provinces it was decided that the capital and interest would be spent. In others it was decided that only the interest would be spent. So far as I am aware the funds have been exhausted in most provinces, some through unwise investments and some otherwise.

The point I wish to make, however, is that we should now have a definite programme with respect to what is to be done with these moneys, in order to avoid all the troubles and difficulties which might arise after the war. It has been suggested-and I believe there is a good deal of merit in the suggestion-that there should be no accumulation of these funds. The difficulty there is of course that a large proportion of the funds are derived from auxiliary services canteens, and from the wet and dry canteens, and1 thus the question of competition with local stores arises. But the difference in prices may be only the matter of a fraction of a cent; the profit accrues through the volume handled'.

Then it has been suggested that these moneys should be expended on the men themselves. This method, suggested by the hon. member who spoke a moment ago, is one which perhaps deserves the most consideration. The other suggestion is that the proceeds should be. devoted to the encouragement of sports, the acquisition of books, the provision of men's recreational facilities, and so on.

I do not wish to attempt to press my views on anyone, but I have a strong feeling that the accumulation of funds which will be only a cause of dissension after the war is perhaps undesirable, and that, after all, anything which could be done with these funds by way of relief or assistance could perhaps be done better by a central governmental authority.

There is another point which merits inquiry, and that is the number of such funds which are in process of accumulation at the present time. I have in mind the proceeds of funds derived from regimental institutes. In the Royal Canadian Air Force a very large fund is being accumulated in what is known as the Royal Canadian Air Force benevolent fund. This is a fund which, it is intended, shall accrue for the benefit of Royal Canadian Air Force men after the war. I believe it was originated in 1924, when we had only a very small permanent force. What should be considered is whether the moneys made out of the sums expended by persons wrho are in the war only for the duration, who were not in the permanent force and who are concerned only with doing their duty as citizens during the war, should go into a fund which in all probability will be of greater benefit to the men of the permanent force than to those who enlisted later. If it is to be distributed to all those who served only during the present war, where are we to get the distributing agency? Is it to be an agency composed of men who are in the army, the air force or the navy after the war, or is it to be a civilian agency?

The experience in the last war was that when a man got out of the army, the air force or any of the armed services he wanted to see as little as possible of those armed forces. Again, speaking without any authority and from a purely personal point of view, I am not quite sure that a benevolent fund such as that which we are building up in the Royal Canadian Air Force is the right kind of fund. All these are matters which require the sincere consideration of some body; whether it be composed of members of the Senate or of the House of Commons I am not prepared to argue. But the fact that the House of Commons is closer to the people from whom the profits which make

Canteen Funds

these funds are derived leads me to the belief that perhaps the house would be the better body to inquire into these matters. Eventually we shall have to decide on some system and bring in legislation to deal with it.

It has been decided, if not by privy council, by the treasury branch in Britain, that canteen funds are public funds. There was a great deal of controversy at the end of the last war over who owned these funds which were made up of very small amounts contributed by a great number of people. The British treasury said they were public funds. In this country a great many people held other views. Certainly if they are public funds the House of Commons is the place to deal with the matter. I have no strong views on the question whether there should be a committee of this house, a committee of the other house or a joint committee, but I do submit that it is something we should get at, and get at immediately.

Before taking my seat I want to add a word of tribute to what has been said by the leader of the opposition in praise of Mr. James Macdonnell of Toronto and his associates, Mr. Plante and Mr. Watson Sellar, of Ottawa, for the work they did in digging into the great mass of information which we have on this matter and giving it careful study. I commend their report for study and inquiry by the committee.

Topic:   CANTEEN FUNDS
Subtopic:   APPOINTMENT OF SELECT COMMITTEE TO INQUIRE INTO COLLECTION, CUSTODY, INVESTMENT AND CONTROL
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NAT

George Black

National Government

Mr. GEORGE BLACK (Yukon):

I. am glad to see this resolution introduced at this time and shall be glad to support it. I think it is a matter of sufficient importance to be considered and dealt with by this House of Commons.

As the two ministers who have just spoken have told the house, there was after the last war a canteen fund which amounted to a couple of million dollars. I had a good deal to do with the ultimate distribution of that fund, as the present Minister of Pensions and National Health (Mr. Mackenzie) will recall. Enlistments in the last war from the Yukon were per capita as high as if not higher than in any province of the dominion, and when the canteen fund was ultimately distributed a fair proportion was placed at the disposal of the Yukon returned men. That fund was put into the hands of trustees, consisting of the comptroller of that territory and two trustworthy returned men, and has been wisely used to help reestablish returned men in civilian life. Loans have from time to time been made from the fund, and for the most part have been repaid. I am happy to be able to say that a considerable amount

still remains in the fund for the use of the returned men who need it. I hope the canteen fund that will grow up from this war will be as well handled as the canteen fund of the last war was handled and is being handled in Yukon territory.

Topic:   CANTEEN FUNDS
Subtopic:   APPOINTMENT OF SELECT COMMITTEE TO INQUIRE INTO COLLECTION, CUSTODY, INVESTMENT AND CONTROL
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LIB

James Layton Ralston (Minister of National Defence)

Liberal

Hon. J. L. RALSTON (Minister of National Defence):

Mr. Speaker, I just want to say

that the commission headed by Mr. Macdonnell was initiated by my colleague the Minister of National Defence for Air (Mr. Power) while I was absent from Canada, and that is why he has been good enough to speak to the resolution. I want to add my very sincere word of appreciation of the excellent work done by Mr. Macdonnell, Mr. Sellar and Mr. Plante and of the time they took and the effort they put into getting this complicated subject into some sort of shape. In their report the house committee will find they have an excellent document upon which to work and make recommendations with respect to what I regard as a major matter of future policy which ought to be determined by a committee of the house and by the house itself.

Mr. ROSS W. GRAY (Lambton West): Speaking as one who served as a private soldier in the last war, I feel rather strongly on one aspect of this matter which was barely touched upon by the Minister of National Defence for Air (Mr. Power). It should always be remembered that these canteen funds and similar funds are designed primarily for the comfort and convenience of the personnel they serve. It does seem to me that when this question comes before the committee it should be strongly urged that in the main the funds are accumulated from the private soldier, and that so far as possible they should be distributed to the private soldier, at cost. In my opinion there should not be a large accumulation of profits to be left over after this war as there was after the last war.

Topic:   CANTEEN FUNDS
Subtopic:   APPOINTMENT OF SELECT COMMITTEE TO INQUIRE INTO COLLECTION, CUSTODY, INVESTMENT AND CONTROL
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March 24, 1942