March 13, 1942

?

Some hon. MEMBERS:

Go on.

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LIB

Harry Leader

Liberal

Mr. LEADER:

No, thank you; I do not

think I should continue. I have said enough to indicate my position and what I shall do in regard to this legislation when it comes before the house for third reading. I am not particular as to whether I vote for the amendment or against it. I still believe it would be wise to withdraw it. I believe it is a futile gesture, and that it smacks of politics, if that is a proper word.

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CCF

Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):

That is not

fair.

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LIB

Harry Leader

Liberal

Mr. LEADER:

Perhaps it is not, but I have that suspicion, and feeling as I do I cannot vote for the amendment. It really does not make any difference. But I shall be here with both feet if we do not get that $1 a bushel which was asked by these farm organizations and will vote against the government on third reading. I am not going to fail these organizations. That is where they get their bread and butter. The loyalty I owe is not to any political party; it is to the people on the farms, both east and west, whom I represent in this house. I represent not only the constituency of Portage la Prairie in Manitoba, but in this particular case I represent the agriculturists of western Canada.

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IND
SC
LIB
IND

Liguori Lacombe

Independent Liberal

Mr. LACOMBE:

I rise to a point of

order. Standing order 35 provides:

When two or more members rise to speak, Mr. Speaker calls upon the member who first rose in his place; but a motion may be made that any member who has risen "be now heard", or "do now speak", which motion shall be forthwith put without debate.

I submit respectfully that I rose from my seat three times this afternoon and according to the rules of the house I must have the floor.

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LIB

Georges Parent (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER:

It is true that the hon.

member did rise, but he knows that I have a list of the members who it has been arranged

Wheat Board Act

should speak to-day, and who are all present. I saw the hon. member for Camrose (Mr. Marshall) when he rose in his place to take the floor, and he now has the floor. If the hon. member is dissatisfied he has the right under the rule he has just cited-or someone may do it for him-to move that he be now heard. If any hon. member rises in his place and requests that the hon. member be now heard, I shall put it to the house and the house will then decide who shall speak. The hon. member for Camrose has the floor.

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IND

Liguori Lacombe

Independent Liberal

Mr. LACOMBE:

I rise to another point

of order. Nothing in the standing orders of the house mentions the lists of the whips of any party. It is absolutely against the rules of the house to follow those lists. I stand upon these regulations and ask that I be allowed to speak.

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LIB

Ian Alistair Mackenzie (Minister of Pensions and National Health)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):

On the point of order raised by the hon. member, the rule has been established for many years that the Speaker sees a certain hon. member in debate; and frequently in the British House of Commons some members wait for weeks before they get the privilege of taking part in the debate. It is not at all a matter of the whips' lists, but in order to expedite the work of the house some arrangement must be made between those responsible for the conduct of the house. The Speaker has the right to see any hon. member he chooses to see; that has been part of our system for centuries.

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NAT

Richard Burpee Hanson (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):

What has been said by the Minister of Pensions and National Health (Mr. Mackenzie) is in accordance with the practice of this house, and I do not see how we could very well depart from it as a general principle, for the reasons which have been stated. On the other hand, however, there should be a sense of fairness in regard to this matter. If the whips choose to make up lists-which of course are not official in any way-and hand them to the Speaker, who follows the lists and sees only those whose names are contained therein, I could conceive of a situation where an hon. member might never be heard, and of course that would be a denial of justice.

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LIB

Ian Alistair Mackenzie (Minister of Pensions and National Health)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):

That has never happened in this house.

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NAT

Richard Burpee Hanson (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):

Well, we had the inception of it right here this afternoon. I hold no brief for the hon. member who is endeavouring to catch the eye of the Speaker, but I have an innate sense of justice which tells me that this is not exactly right. It is near the end of the afternoon, of course,

and in a few moments we are going to adjourn. I do suggest that some arrangement be made by the whips-and this may be a means of expediting it-whereby the hon. member may be able to express his views on the floor of this house in regard to the question now before us.

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LIB

Ian Alistair Mackenzie (Minister of Pensions and National Health)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):

May I point out to my hon. friend that the hon. member already has been told that he can speak in this debate on Monday.

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NAT

Richard Burpee Hanson (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):

I had not been told that. I do not know why he did not agree to that arrangement.

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LIB

Georges Parent (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER:

The hon. member for Laval-Two Mountains (Mr. Lacombe) knows the rules of the house, I am sure. With what has been said by the leader of the opposition (Mr. Hanson) I am entirely in agreement. I want to see that every hon. member has the opportunity to speak, as he is entitled to do; but I do think the Chair should not be placed in the position of having to discriminate between hon. members on both sides of the house. With the present composition of the house I should be bound to make mistakes and to discriminate unfairly. The rules provide, however, that if the hon. member is dissatisfied he may, through some other hon. member, ask that he be heard. If that is done I will put it to the house, which will judge as to who should be heard. In this instance no one has asked that the hon. member for Laval-Two Mountains be heard; therefore the hon. member for Camrose has the floor.

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IND

Liguori Lacombe

Independent Liberal

Mr. LACOMBE:

Then, following the

remarks of the leader of the opposition, I ask the Chair to give me the floor.

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LIB

Georges Parent (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER:

The hon. member must understand that I have already given my ruling. The standing order is there; it can be taken advantage of by the hon. member. As soon as that is done it will be brought before the house, and the house will decide as to who is to speak. In this case no such request has been made to the Chair; therefore I have seen the hon. member for Camrose, who now has the floor.

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IND

March 13, 1942