April 7, 1941

CCF

Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):

So far as

older people are concerned, there will be a hardship, although I think there will be a hardship in any event for everyone, old or young. The mortgagee in a great many instances, particularly in Saskatchewan, is either a mortgage company or a loan company or an insurance company. This is what will happen. A man summer-fallows land, and in the heavy land around the Regina plains where he is using tractors and buying oil it is a fairly expensive process. The hon. member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Leader) suggested $5; but even if we allow $4 to cover the cost of summer-fallow, if one-third can be collected by the mortgagee or vendor all the farmer will get out of the 84 bonus is $2.66. And the mortgagor bears the entire expense. I can understand in the case of coarse grain there is an argument, when the $2 is part of the proceeds of the crop, and it may be that the mortgagee is supplying the seed. But in the case of summer-fallow he is supplying nothing, except that he pays the taxes out of his share of the crop, if there is any.

Topic:   CANADIAN FORCES
Subtopic:   REQUEST FOR TABLING OF MEMORANDUM BT GENERAL MCNAUGHTON ON SUPPLY OF SKILLED MEN
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
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LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of National War Services; Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

The owner is supplying the land. .

Topic:   CANADIAN FORCES
Subtopic:   REQUEST FOR TABLING OF MEMORANDUM BT GENERAL MCNAUGHTON ON SUPPLY OF SKILLED MEN
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
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LIB

Roy Theodore Graham

Liberal

Mr. GRAHAM:

The point raised by the hon. member for Weyburn is interesting, although I do not think I go quite as far as he does; I do not think it necessary. There should, however, be a distinction between the true landlord, that is the owner of the land who rents it and receives an annual rental for the use of the land, and the other types who come within the meaning of the term "landord" under this regulation, including the vendor of land and the mortgagee. We have to keep in mind that, in the case of vendors or mortgagees, if they do not receive a payment in any given year their debt is only postponed. Their position is entirely different from that of the true landlord who receives an annual rental for the use of land which he owns. While I would not have the government discriminate against the mortgagee or vendor, I suggest that we have in mind the situation, particularly in my own province but to a greater or less extent in parts of Alberta and Manitoba, where we realize that the question of debt adjustment is a most important one, so much so that recently the provincial legislature saw fit to amend the Crop Payments Act to permit of a mortgagor or purchaser under a mortgage or agreement for sale retaining out of the creditor's share sufficient at least to main-

{Mr. Gardiner.]

tain himself and family. If there is any dispute, the matter goes before the debt adjustment board and the machinery provides for a hearing of the points involved, the decision of the board being binding on the debtor and creditor, as far as a decision can be binding. If either is dissatisfied there is an appeal to a district court judge.

I suggest that the government would be wise to consider leaving the relationship of the mortgagee with the mortgagor and the vendor with the purchaser in the same position as that of any other debtor and creditor, in the province of Saskatchewan particularly. It seems to me inviting trouble for the minister and the government if we attempt to pay money direct to them out of this. If the money is paid to the farmer direct, no right that the mortgagee or vendor ever had is disturbed by that payment. If the amount he receives under this, combined with the amount of crop which he harvests or the amount of live stock which he sells, is more than sufficient to perform that fundamental task of maintaining himself and his family, then, of course, the mortgagee or vendor will get a reasonable share of that surplus. Therefore, I suggest that the minister consider whether he had not better confine the meaning of the word "landlord" to the true landlord, the owner of land who is entitled to an annual rent and who cannot postpone that rent in the same manner as a vendor or mortgagee. It would save the dominion government considerable trouble to leave the task of settling the relationship between debtor and creditor to the proper governmental authority, that is the provincial government.

Topic:   CANADIAN FORCES
Subtopic:   REQUEST FOR TABLING OF MEMORANDUM BT GENERAL MCNAUGHTON ON SUPPLY OF SKILLED MEN
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
Permalink
CCF

Alexander Malcolm Nicholson

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. NICHOLSON:

Following what the hon. member for Weyburn said, I point out that if something is not done to give the farmer some further return in addition to the two-thirds proposed, I fear that large areas will not be seeded. Take the case of a farmer who was prepared to seed 100 acres, a return of twenty bushels to the acre would give the landlord 8333 and the farmer $666. I realize that the landlord, by not having his land seeded, will suffer loss of income. But suppose this 100 acres should be summer-fallowed this year, according to the proposal the farmer would receive only $266 and the landlord or mortgage company $133. In most parts of Saskatchewan the farmers would find it impossible to summer-fallow 100 acres in a satisfactory manner on a return of $266. In view of the fact that the farmer's living must come from this 100 acres to a certain extent, a great hardship will be worked on the farmers if we expect them to summer-fallow, pay the

Supply-Agriculture-Wheat Acreages

costs of oil and repairs and so on and see $133 go, it may be, to the absentee landlord, even though the $133 would be a good deal less than the rental he would normally receive with twenty bushels to the acre at fifty cents a bushel. While a hardship would be worked on some people, it is more important that the farmer actually working the land should have enough to keep himself and family for this temporary period. I support the suggestion of the hon. member for Weybum, that the farmer who does the work should be entitled to keep the $400.

Topic:   CANADIAN FORCES
Subtopic:   REQUEST FOR TABLING OF MEMORANDUM BT GENERAL MCNAUGHTON ON SUPPLY OF SKILLED MEN
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
Permalink
LIB

James Lester Douglas

Liberal

Mr. DOUGLAS (Weybum):

Under regulation 5, paragraph (b), there is going to be an even more complicated proposition. The vendor or mortgagee is to get one-third of whatever interest he has in the farm. If he has a one-third interest in the farm, he gets one-third of one-third. Solomon trying to divide the child between two women had an easy task compared with what the Minister of Agriculture will have. He will have almost innumerable cases as between two contracting parties each trying to establish his share of the bonus. The Minister of Agriculture will have to become a referee in thousands of cases.

Topic:   CANADIAN FORCES
Subtopic:   REQUEST FOR TABLING OF MEMORANDUM BT GENERAL MCNAUGHTON ON SUPPLY OF SKILLED MEN
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
Permalink
LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of National War Services; Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

No; it is settled in accordance with these regulations.

Topic:   CANADIAN FORCES
Subtopic:   REQUEST FOR TABLING OF MEMORANDUM BT GENERAL MCNAUGHTON ON SUPPLY OF SKILLED MEN
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
Permalink
CCF

Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):

It will be a matter of deciding what interest each has. If a mortgagee has an interest in a quarter-section and the question arises how much of the land taken out of wheat production is actually in the quarter-section in which the vendor has an interest-

Topic:   CANADIAN FORCES
Subtopic:   REQUEST FOR TABLING OF MEMORANDUM BT GENERAL MCNAUGHTON ON SUPPLY OF SKILLED MEN
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
Permalink
LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of National War Services; Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

If he is farming three quarter-sections and the mortgage is on one quarter, no mortgage on the half-section, and there was 300 acres of wheat last year and it is reduced this year by 150, then the amount there would be fifty acres per quarter-section; or the reduction of 150 acres is on the basis of one-third of one-third going to the mortgagee and the remainder to the man farming the land.

Topic:   CANADIAN FORCES
Subtopic:   REQUEST FOR TABLING OF MEMORANDUM BT GENERAL MCNAUGHTON ON SUPPLY OF SKILLED MEN
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
Permalink
CCF

Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):

The regulations do not say that. Suppose the farmer were to claim that the 150 acres were all on his half-section

Topic:   CANADIAN FORCES
Subtopic:   REQUEST FOR TABLING OF MEMORANDUM BT GENERAL MCNAUGHTON ON SUPPLY OF SKILLED MEN
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
Permalink
LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of National War Services; Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

He cannot.

Topic:   CANADIAN FORCES
Subtopic:   REQUEST FOR TABLING OF MEMORANDUM BT GENERAL MCNAUGHTON ON SUPPLY OF SKILLED MEN
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
Permalink
CCF

Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):

-and the bonus was on the land in which he is interested, then the minister would have to be referee. The hon. member for Swift Current hit the nail on the head; the task of the minister under these regulations is to pay the bonus. The relation between the contracting

parties is something for the provincial government, and the minister would be wise to wipe his hands of the grief in which he will be involved if he tries to carry out the implications of these two paragraphs.

Topic:   CANADIAN FORCES
Subtopic:   REQUEST FOR TABLING OF MEMORANDUM BT GENERAL MCNAUGHTON ON SUPPLY OF SKILLED MEN
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
Permalink
NAT

James Arthur Ross

National Government

Mr. ROSS (Souris):

There is a good deal of merit in the suggestions offered by the hon. member for Weyburn and the hon. member for Swift Current. In some localities most of the tenant's share will be taken up in connection with the labour required, and he will not get his just portion. That will not be so in every instance, but it will be so in many. It seems to me that if this payment were made direct to the operator, the division could then be made under contract between the landlord and the tenant, which I think would avoid a great deal of trouble for everyone concerned.

To come now to the question of what constitutes summer-fallow, a question which has been asked by many hon. gentlemen this evening, in many districts of the west we have had innovations or new systems introduced in the last few years in connection with what we now call summer-fallowing. I am wondering whether the superintendents of the experimental farms in the various areas might not more or less decide what constitutes proper summer-fallowing, because it varies in many districts.

Topic:   CANADIAN FORCES
Subtopic:   REQUEST FOR TABLING OF MEMORANDUM BT GENERAL MCNAUGHTON ON SUPPLY OF SKILLED MEN
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
Permalink
LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of National War Services; Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

I have already stated

that under the Prairie Farm Assistance Act the superintendents of the experimental farms in the different areas are consulted; and of course the method of summer-fallowing adopted is very often that which has been advocated by the superintendent of the farm. Of course these gentlemen will be consulted with regard to these matters.

Topic:   CANADIAN FORCES
Subtopic:   REQUEST FOR TABLING OF MEMORANDUM BT GENERAL MCNAUGHTON ON SUPPLY OF SKILLED MEN
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
Permalink
NAT

Thomas Langton Church

National Government

Mr. CHURCH:

This appropriation of

$35,000,000 for supplementary estimates, should not be passed until it is considered by the agriculture committee. The Toronto Globe and Mail has some things to say this morning about the Canadian council of agriculture, whose representatives have been around here for the last week urging these and other measures for the protection of this industry. These gentlemen are now advocating the most advanced form of protection for agriculture. Ir. this house I have always supported a proper national policy for the grain growers of Canada; that is, the men who actually grow the grain. The premiers of the three prairie provinces, and the ministers of agriculture in this house in the past since I have been here, were consistent free traders before the war, as far as this great industry is concerned. I have taken a

2250 COMMONS

Supply-Agriculture-Wheat Acreages

strong stand here with regard to agriculture, because I regard it as a barometer of the progress, success and prosperity of Canada; and it should have all the help this house can give it, if it is a long-range policy and not a half-baked one like this.

First of all, however, we should look into the policies of hon. gentlemen opposite. They have never had a grain policy. They have been everything by fits and starts, and nothing long. In the words of the Prime Minister the other day, "you paj' your money and take your choice," though that should be changed to: "You pay anyway, and you have no choice." The poor man on the prairies who grows the grain, the dirt farmer, has been done out of millions and millions of dollars by the middlemen on the prairies, the elevator ring, all the other rings, and the Winnipeg grain exchange, the greatest enemy the grain growers of the west ever had, centred in the city of Winnipeg, dealing in futures and all that sort of thing. No one in this house will complain about giving proper help to the grain growers of the prairies, I am sure, if it is a cure, or help.

The first session I was in this house, in 1922, the Canadian council of agriculture came here and opposed protection for this industry when those on this side were contending that it was not a north and south industry, as hon. gentlemen opposite said; that it was not a free trade industry with the United States, but an east and west industry. an overseas industry to Britain, France, Italy, and the markets of the world. But these gentlemen came here and opposed any protection. They are here again to-day, but they have turned a complete about-face. From 1920 on, the Canadian council of agriculture came here and said that protection was an unmitigated evil and a robber system, in the brief they then presented; that it had been the root of all the trouble that existed on the prairies. Now they have been proved wrong, and they are here to get S35.000.000 this year, or any advanced form of protection they can secure. This bill is an advanced form of protection; it provides bonuses, subventions and subsidies all along the line, with the other aids added of other years. It pays people for doing nothing.

We have never had a proper grain policy, and we never shall have a proper national policy as long as hon. gentlemen opposite are in office. Some three or four years ago not being one of those who were Geneva-minded, and seeing this war coming, I urged that we should get our carryover out of the country. I suggested the establishment of food and grain reservoirs in Great Britain.

Five years ago it was stated by the British medical association, meeting in the city of London, that our Canadian hard wheat was the finest grain in the world, and that with up-to-date methods it could be stored and kept in good condition for ten years. My suggestion was endorsed by the hon. member for Qu'Appelle who has impressed me as knowing more than any man I ever heard about the grain growing industry in all its phases. If my suggestion had been adopted and these reservoirs had been established, we would have cleaned out the elevators and the various carryovers, and the grain would have been over in the old country. To-day, however, because of lack of shipping, elevator and storage space and the glut in the war market, we do not know where we are, and do not know what it will cost or whither it is to lead us, and it is not a national but a local policy.

We are now going into this policy of protection all along the line, with bonuses, subventions and subsidies, and new ones added every session. That policy has been expanded in the last few years. We have now many forms of protection, and this year we have an item in the supplementary estimates for $35,000,000. This is not a long-range policy. I think it was last year that I urged the minister to have a conference with the Hon. H. A. Wallace, then secretary of agriculture in the United States, as to the orderly marketing of wheat in war time and a united action.

Progress reported.

Topic:   CANADIAN FORCES
Subtopic:   REQUEST FOR TABLING OF MEMORANDUM BT GENERAL MCNAUGHTON ON SUPPLY OF SKILLED MEN
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
Permalink

At eleven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order. Tuesday, April 8, 1941.


April 7, 1941