April 7, 1941

LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of National War Services; Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

I do not know very

many quarter-section farmers in western Canada; there are a few of them. But all those I do know are carrying on mixed farming. I do not know of any farmer who farms a quarter-section of land who is depending largely for his living upon his wheat. He is depending upon wheat for the kind of thing which was mentioned earlier in the debate by the hon. member for Yorkton; that is, he sometimes has to depend upon it to pay his past debts; if he does not get the wheat, he just is not able to pay. I agree, however, that there is some danger in these cases, if someone does not protect the interest of the individual farmer, of actions being taken in cases, where perhaps, they should not be. But, again, I would suppose that these cases are limited in number. The experience I have had with mortgage companies, particularly- and they get about as much criticism as anybody-is that in times like these they are not looking for more land. I believe that so long as a person is able to get along without running further into debt, he will not find much difficulty in getting whatever is available under this legislation, to help him carry on.

To answer this question in another way, I would say this, that if we once accept the condition that we are going to take only

230,000,000 bushels, and the further fact that we are going to allow the farmer only a quota in order to make up his part of that 230,000,000 bushels, I believe if he operates the matter properly, he can get better returns under this arrangement than he could under the other. In many instances it will depend upon the farmer himself whether he does or not. If, for example, he were putting in sixty acres of wheat, or anything over sixty acres, of a quarter-section of 160 acres, I think he could work out a plan under this scheme whereby he would get more cash this year than he would under the other system that is proposed.

Topic:   CANADIAN FORCES
Subtopic:   REQUEST FOR TABLING OF MEMORANDUM BT GENERAL MCNAUGHTON ON SUPPLY OF SKILLED MEN
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
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CCF

George Hugh Castleden

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. CASTLEDEN:

On what does the

minister base that estimate of an increased income?

Mr. GARDINER; On the figures I gave a few minutes ago, that he could get under this, if he is farming on a quarter-section

fMr. Gardiner.]

proportionately to what he would be farming on a half-section, about 86 cents a bushel, on the wheat that he cannot deliver-

Topic:   CANADIAN FORCES
Subtopic:   REQUEST FOR TABLING OF MEMORANDUM BT GENERAL MCNAUGHTON ON SUPPLY OF SKILLED MEN
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
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CCF

Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):

Only on a

few acres.

Topic:   CANADIAN FORCES
Subtopic:   REQUEST FOR TABLING OF MEMORANDUM BT GENERAL MCNAUGHTON ON SUPPLY OF SKILLED MEN
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
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LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of National War Services; Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

It would be only a few

acres in the other case, too.

Topic:   CANADIAN FORCES
Subtopic:   REQUEST FOR TABLING OF MEMORANDUM BT GENERAL MCNAUGHTON ON SUPPLY OF SKILLED MEN
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
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LIB

Roy Theodore Graham

Liberal

Mr. GRAHAM:

I believe the regulations

provide for this, but I should like to be certain, because of the difference in the wording of the first subparagraphs (b) and (c). It will be noted that it provides in (c) that rye can be seeded in the fall of 1941 on summer-fallow, and one can get the compensation for summer-fallow, and also in 1942, $2 per acre of rye. Does that apply to crested wheat grass in a district where it is good wisdom to sow it in the fall rather than in the summer?

Topic:   CANADIAN FORCES
Subtopic:   REQUEST FOR TABLING OF MEMORANDUM BT GENERAL MCNAUGHTON ON SUPPLY OF SKILLED MEN
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
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LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of National War Services; Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

Yes. It applies to rye and any kind of grass. It is the custom in some areas to sow grass seed in the fall of the year, and in those areas it will be sown in the fall. There will be certain farmers who can take advantage of that under conditions such as were described by the hon. member for Acadia, where men allow land to lie fallow throughout the year. Under this plan they can allow it to lie fallow throughout the year, sowing nothing on it at all, not even summer-fallowing it. They can sow rye on it in the fall or grass and get $2 for having sown grass or rye in the fall and another $2 the following year if it is still there.

Topic:   CANADIAN FORCES
Subtopic:   REQUEST FOR TABLING OF MEMORANDUM BT GENERAL MCNAUGHTON ON SUPPLY OF SKILLED MEN
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
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LIB

Frederick William Gershaw

Liberal

Mr. GERSHAW:

Suppose it is a cover crop of wheat sown in the fall. How will that work out?

Topic:   CANADIAN FORCES
Subtopic:   REQUEST FOR TABLING OF MEMORANDUM BT GENERAL MCNAUGHTON ON SUPPLY OF SKILLED MEN
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
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LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of National War Services; Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

There is no provision for paying any one for sowing wheat. It is for not sowing wheat.

Topic:   CANADIAN FORCES
Subtopic:   REQUEST FOR TABLING OF MEMORANDUM BT GENERAL MCNAUGHTON ON SUPPLY OF SKILLED MEN
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
Permalink
LIB

Frederick William Gershaw

Liberal

Mr. GERSHAW:

Suppose it were after the first of July, would he qualify for his summer-fallow bonus? Suppose it is black at that time, and later on he sows a cover crop to use it for winter feed.

Topic:   CANADIAN FORCES
Subtopic:   REQUEST FOR TABLING OF MEMORANDUM BT GENERAL MCNAUGHTON ON SUPPLY OF SKILLED MEN
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
Permalink
LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of National War Services; Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

I suggest that he had better get rye this year if he wants to collect.

Topic:   CANADIAN FORCES
Subtopic:   REQUEST FOR TABLING OF MEMORANDUM BT GENERAL MCNAUGHTON ON SUPPLY OF SKILLED MEN
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
Permalink
SC

Victor Quelch

Social Credit

Mr. QUELCH:

If the land is summer-fallowed by the first of July and he applies for a bonus and is paid, then I take it that so long as he signs the agreement that he will not thresh any crop off the land that year, he could, if he wished to do so, on July 15 sow wheat as a cover crop. He could do so so long as he agreed not to thresh it, or he might pasture it. If he has summer-fallowed the land, he will not be penalized for having sown that cover crop.

Supply-Agriculture-Wheat Acreages

Topic:   CANADIAN FORCES
Subtopic:   REQUEST FOR TABLING OF MEMORANDUM BT GENERAL MCNAUGHTON ON SUPPLY OF SKILLED MEN
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
Permalink
LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of National War Services; Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

Where that is the practice, in all probability payments will not be made until around, the first of August or later; and if he sows nothing after that, it is just pasture. That is a matter of his own judgment.

Topic:   CANADIAN FORCES
Subtopic:   REQUEST FOR TABLING OF MEMORANDUM BT GENERAL MCNAUGHTON ON SUPPLY OF SKILLED MEN
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
Permalink
CCF

Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):

I wish to join with those who suggest that, if it is at all possible, there be some fairly clear definition of the words "summer-fallow". Like the hon. member for Macdonald (Mr. Weir), I have received a number of letters from people. On land subject to soil drifting they have been summer-fallowing in the way the hon. member suggests, sowing corn and cultivating in between. Will this be considered summer-fallow or coarse grain? One of the difficulties about a bonus like this, or any other bonus system, is that so much discretion must be left to the field man or the inspector. One of the difficulties about administering it will be that in some instances the inspector, either because he thinks he is right or because he does not like the fellow with whom he is dealing, will decide that it is not proper summer-fallowing. The minister and members will receive letters and correspondence; they will have interviews with boards and all that sort of thing to settle border-line cases. The closer the definition can come to what will actually constitute summer-fallow, the less grief we shall have next year in the course of administration.

With reference to regulation 5 I would draw this to the attention of the minister:

In the case of a farm in which the landlord has an interest in the crop returns on the whole of the farm, the landlord may be entitled to receive not more than one-third of the amount to be paid for wheat acreage reduction on the farm.

It does not say "shall be entitled"; it says he "may be entitled". Does this mean that the landlord will have the power to seize one-third of the bonus? A large percentage of the leases out west are one-third crop share leases.

Topic:   CANADIAN FORCES
Subtopic:   REQUEST FOR TABLING OF MEMORANDUM BT GENERAL MCNAUGHTON ON SUPPLY OF SKILLED MEN
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
Permalink
LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of National War Services; Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

This is intended to deal with the case where a man has a three-quarter section of land and the mortgage is on one quarter. He may have had all his wheat last year on the half-section that has no mortgage on it. What this intends is that the man in that position pays to the mortgage company only one-third of one-third. The wheat spreads over the whole thing and the collection spreads over it all. It is proportionate.

Topic:   CANADIAN FORCES
Subtopic:   REQUEST FOR TABLING OF MEMORANDUM BT GENERAL MCNAUGHTON ON SUPPLY OF SKILLED MEN
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
Permalink
CCF

Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):

That is what paragraph (b) says. What about (a)?

Topic:   CANADIAN FORCES
Subtopic:   REQUEST FOR TABLING OF MEMORANDUM BT GENERAL MCNAUGHTON ON SUPPLY OF SKILLED MEN
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
Permalink
LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of National War Services; Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

That is, in the case of a farm in which the landlord has an interest in the crop returns on the whole of the farm. He may be entitled to receive not more than one-third of the amount to be paid for wheat acreage reduction on the farm. The amount he is to be allowed is only one-third. The government itself is not assumed to have taken any obligation upon itself. If it pays $10 too much or S5 too little, we shall not have a lot of litigation. The decision is with the government and not with the mortgage company.

Topic:   CANADIAN FORCES
Subtopic:   REQUEST FOR TABLING OF MEMORANDUM BT GENERAL MCNAUGHTON ON SUPPLY OF SKILLED MEN
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
Permalink
CCF

Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):

In the case of a crop share lease, a one-third crop share lease, the landlord pays the taxes out of his third and that is all the obligation he has. In the case of summer-fallow, the farmer will do all the summer-fallow, putting up all the expenses, and he gets a bonus of $4 an acre. Has the landlord or the mortgagee any claim on that under regulation 5(a)? Can he claim one-third of that bonus?

Topic:   CANADIAN FORCES
Subtopic:   REQUEST FOR TABLING OF MEMORANDUM BT GENERAL MCNAUGHTON ON SUPPLY OF SKILLED MEN
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
Permalink
LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of National War Services; Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

Under the regulations as they are drafted, a mortgage company or any one who is interested, whether it be the vendor or the mortgage company or anyone of that kind, if there is a crop agreement with the person who is on the farm, is permitted to collect up to one-third but not more than one-third. Even if they have a half crop agreement they can collect only one-third; they must put in their claim before May 1 just as the farmer puts in his claim before May 1, and that will have to be proved as a legitimate contract between the two individuals.

Topic:   CANADIAN FORCES
Subtopic:   REQUEST FOR TABLING OF MEMORANDUM BT GENERAL MCNAUGHTON ON SUPPLY OF SKILLED MEN
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
Permalink
CCF

Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):

Why should he in the case of summer-fallow be entitled to one-third? In the case of coarse grain I can understand it. The sum of $2 paid in the case of coarse grain has reference to a process in production, but in the case of summer-fallow he has no investment.

Topic:   CANADIAN FORCES
Subtopic:   REQUEST FOR TABLING OF MEMORANDUM BT GENERAL MCNAUGHTON ON SUPPLY OF SKILLED MEN
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
Permalink
LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of National War Services; Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

Under most of these

contracts the farmer has to do certain things and one of them is that he must summer-fallow so much land. Another may be to grow so many acres of wheat, oats and so on, and then the vendor or the mortgagee has a claim of one-third of that crop. We come along and say to the individual, "We are taking away the terms of that contract and giving you the right to reduce that acreage, and because you are reducing it you will get certain payments". The vendor in many instances is some old person who has sold the land to another member of the family or to some one else, and it is his only means of support. We say to

2248 COMMONS

Supply-A griculture-Wheat Acreages

the mortgage companies, "You get whatever percentage is provided for in the contract so long as it is not over a third".

Topic:   CANADIAN FORCES
Subtopic:   REQUEST FOR TABLING OF MEMORANDUM BT GENERAL MCNAUGHTON ON SUPPLY OF SKILLED MEN
Sub-subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
Permalink

April 7, 1941