April 1, 1941

NAT

Richard Burpee Hanson (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):

I suppose you could include oysters under that definition, if you put that word in the statute.

Topic:   EXPORT OF GAME
Subtopic:   PROHIBITION OF SHIPMENTS OUT OF PROVINCE WITHOUT PROPER PROVINCIAL AUTHORIZATION
Permalink
LIB

Thomas Alexander Crerar (Minister of Mines and Resources)

Liberal

Mr. CRERAR:

I dare say you could.

Topic:   EXPORT OF GAME
Subtopic:   PROHIBITION OF SHIPMENTS OUT OF PROVINCE WITHOUT PROPER PROVINCIAL AUTHORIZATION
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Section agreed to. Section 4 agreed to. On section 5-Oath of game officer.


NAT

Richard Burpee Hanson (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):

I suggest to the minister that subsection 2 is altogether too wide and that all but the first clause should be dropped. This section reads:

(1) Every game officer shall, before entering upon the duties of his office, take and subscribe an oath . . .

(2) Every game officer shall for all the purposes of this act have anywhere in Canada all the powers of a peace officer or a police constable . . .

I have not the slightest objection to that; I think it is quite proper. But then you go on and clothe these game officers with all the power and authority of a justice of the peace anywhere in Canada. This is what will happen. A game officer comes across an alleged

2036

Export of Game

violation of this statute. He lays the charge, tries the culprit and collects the fine right on the spot. If hon. gentlemen have ever been caught in a violation of a traffic law in certain portions of the north American continent-

Topic:   EXPORT OF GAME
Subtopic:   PROHIBITION OF SHIPMENTS OUT OF PROVINCE WITHOUT PROPER PROVINCIAL AUTHORIZATION
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LIB

James Layton Ralston (Minister of National Defence)

Liberal

Mr. RALSTON:

Speak for yourself.

Topic:   EXPORT OF GAME
Subtopic:   PROHIBITION OF SHIPMENTS OUT OF PROVINCE WITHOUT PROPER PROVINCIAL AUTHORIZATION
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NAT

Richard Burpee Hanson (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):

As a

matter of fact it did not happen to me, but it did happen to a friend of mine. I was not guilty this time, though I suppose I have transgressed the traffic laws on many occasions. A traffic officer stops a man for a violation of a traffic law and tells him that if he will give him $10 or $25, whatever it may be, it will be all right; apparently in some jurisdictions he has authority to do that. If a man is in a desperate hurry very often he will fall for that sort of thing and pay the ten dollars rather than stay over for a day and go to the police court, even though he may think he has a fair defence.

I do object to the principle underlying this section, that an officer charged with the enforcement of the law should be judge and jury and impose the penalty. It is bad principle and a very dangerous one, and I object to it. I shall not elaborate the reasons which underlie that statement, but I do appeal to the minister not to put through this provision. Let the ordinary operation of the law apply. We have plenty of laws to cover this sort of thing. Do not let the traffic officer or the game officer, as the case may be, act as judge on the facts and have complete jurisdiction to impose the penalty, so that perhaps an innocent person may suffer. The whole principle is wrong. I am not suggesting that the game officer may pocket the fees; that, of course would depend on the individual, though I have often wondered in the case of traffic violations whether moneys paid to these officers found their way into the public treasury.

This is an exceedingly bad principle; I do not think I ever saw it before in a federal statute. We have plenty of machinery for adjudicating upon these offences. Let them go through the ordinary process of law; let them be heard by a magistrate or a judicial officer who is not himself promoting the charge.

Topic:   EXPORT OF GAME
Subtopic:   PROHIBITION OF SHIPMENTS OUT OF PROVINCE WITHOUT PROPER PROVINCIAL AUTHORIZATION
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LIB

Thomas Reid

Liberal

Mr. REID:

Has the dominion power to

confer this right on officers?

Topic:   EXPORT OF GAME
Subtopic:   PROHIBITION OF SHIPMENTS OUT OF PROVINCE WITHOUT PROPER PROVINCIAL AUTHORIZATION
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NAT

Richard Burpee Hanson (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):

The hon. member raises a question of much greater academic importance, but I am trying to treat this matter realistically and press it home on a point which I am sure will appeal

to the minister as a layman. I have never looked into the question whether or not the dominion has power to appoint justices of the peace. In rare cases we do appoint king's counsel, but ordinarily the appointment of justices of the peace is done by the provinces. I think the dominion has authority to make these men peace officers, or rather to give them all the powers of peace officers, making them analogous to peace officers appointed by a province. But to say that this same man shall be the judge, when he is promoting the charge, is contrary to our sense of British justice. It is wrong. I hope the minister will reconsider this provision in the light of what I have said.

Topic:   EXPORT OF GAME
Subtopic:   PROHIBITION OF SHIPMENTS OUT OF PROVINCE WITHOUT PROPER PROVINCIAL AUTHORIZATION
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LIB

Thomas Alexander Crerar (Minister of Mines and Resources)

Liberal

Mr. CRERAR:

In regard to the question raised by the hon. member for New Westminster it will be observed that the officers endowed with powers under this measure can exercise such power only in so far as the enforcement of the measure is concerned.

I too raised the point which has been raised by the leader of the opposition because to me, a layman, it appeared an unusual procedure. The purpose of including this power, one which is somewhat out of the ordinary, is to meet conditions which may arise in the more remote parts of the country.

Topic:   EXPORT OF GAME
Subtopic:   PROHIBITION OF SHIPMENTS OUT OF PROVINCE WITHOUT PROPER PROVINCIAL AUTHORIZATION
Permalink
NAT

Richard Burpee Hanson (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):

That is just a matter of expediency.

Topic:   EXPORT OF GAME
Subtopic:   PROHIBITION OF SHIPMENTS OUT OF PROVINCE WITHOUT PROPER PROVINCIAL AUTHORIZATION
Permalink
LIB

Thomas Alexander Crerar (Minister of Mines and Resources)

Liberal

Mr. CRERAR:

Permit me to give an illustration. There may be a violation of the law in a remote part of northern Saskatchewan or Alberta. Any officer of the province, whether he be a mounted police officer or a game officer, is authorized under the measure, as I read it, to act as a magistrate in hearing a case which comes before him. In his capacity as law enforcement officer I believe it would not be possible for him to bring a case before himself as justice of the peace. In other words as justice of the peace he could not take evidence from himself in his capacity as law enforcement officer. But if there were two police officers in the circumstances I have mentioned, one could act as law enforcement officer and the other as justice of the peace.

Topic:   EXPORT OF GAME
Subtopic:   PROHIBITION OF SHIPMENTS OUT OF PROVINCE WITHOUT PROPER PROVINCIAL AUTHORIZATION
Permalink
NAT

Richard Burpee Hanson (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):

From the point of view of justice I do not think that has improved the situation very much.

Topic:   EXPORT OF GAME
Subtopic:   PROHIBITION OF SHIPMENTS OUT OF PROVINCE WITHOUT PROPER PROVINCIAL AUTHORIZATION
Permalink
LIB

Thomas Alexander Crerar (Minister of Mines and Resources)

Liberal

Mr. CRERAR:

I am advised that the purpose of the provision is to meet certain circumstances which may arise in remote parts of the country. Of course it would never be put into effect in a more thickly populated community.

Export oj Game

Topic:   EXPORT OF GAME
Subtopic:   PROHIBITION OF SHIPMENTS OUT OF PROVINCE WITHOUT PROPER PROVINCIAL AUTHORIZATION
Permalink
NAT

Richard Burpee Hanson (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):

That is just the point: it will be put into effect in more thickly populated communities. I would say in the neighbouring country that is done every day, somewhere, in connection with breaches of traffic laws. That is an analogous position. I realize that there is some force in the minister's argument in respect of breaches of the law in more remote parts of the country. It is more difficult to have the machinery of the law operative in those parts. Per contra, however, it is much more difficult for an accused to defend himself under those circumstances. He would not have the benefit of the advice, to which he would be entitled, of any member of my profession. An innocent man could be at the mercy of an over-zealous or too officious law officer. It is of the protection and liberty of the subject, and his pocketbook, that I am thinking. There is a principle at stake, and the exceptional case to which the minister has referred should not be taken as governing the general rule.

Topic:   EXPORT OF GAME
Subtopic:   PROHIBITION OF SHIPMENTS OUT OF PROVINCE WITHOUT PROPER PROVINCIAL AUTHORIZATION
Permalink
LIB

Ross Wilfred Gray

Liberal

Mr. GRAY:

it is not often I rise to agree with the leader of the opposition. The minister states that this is no ordinary section; I say it is extraordinary. I can recall an attempt of a somewhat similar nature when I sat in opposition, and I recall, too, that I condemned it at that time. For any police officer to be permitted to act also as judge and jury of an accused man is certainly a principle this house should not establish.

Topic:   EXPORT OF GAME
Subtopic:   PROHIBITION OF SHIPMENTS OUT OF PROVINCE WITHOUT PROPER PROVINCIAL AUTHORIZATION
Permalink
LIB

Thomas Bruce McNevin

Liberal

Mr. McNEVIN:

Is it not true that a number of provinces have provincial game wardens clothed with similar authority?

Topic:   EXPORT OF GAME
Subtopic:   PROHIBITION OF SHIPMENTS OUT OF PROVINCE WITHOUT PROPER PROVINCIAL AUTHORIZATION
Permalink
NAT

Richard Burpee Hanson (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):

That does not make it right.

Topic:   EXPORT OF GAME
Subtopic:   PROHIBITION OF SHIPMENTS OUT OF PROVINCE WITHOUT PROPER PROVINCIAL AUTHORIZATION
Permalink
LIB

Thomas Bruce McNevin

Liberal

Mr. McNEVIN:

A visiting tourist may be accused of some infraction of the law in one of our northern communities. He may not wish to have the publicity of a trial. As the minister has said, two officers can do the work, and it is assumed to be more satisfactory to permit them to do so. I do not say that it is either right or wrong, but I do say that a number of provincial game wardens have been clothed with that authority for a number of years.

Topic:   EXPORT OF GAME
Subtopic:   PROHIBITION OF SHIPMENTS OUT OF PROVINCE WITHOUT PROPER PROVINCIAL AUTHORIZATION
Permalink
NAT

Richard Burpee Hanson (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):

That is only an argument in favour of expediency. I am obliged for the support which has been given by the hon. member for Lambton West.

Topic:   EXPORT OF GAME
Subtopic:   PROHIBITION OF SHIPMENTS OUT OF PROVINCE WITHOUT PROPER PROVINCIAL AUTHORIZATION
Permalink
NAT

John Ritchie MacNicol

National Government

Mr. MacNICOL:

He is right once in a while.

Topic:   EXPORT OF GAME
Subtopic:   PROHIBITION OF SHIPMENTS OUT OF PROVINCE WITHOUT PROPER PROVINCIAL AUTHORIZATION
Permalink

April 1, 1941