July 19, 1940

RAILWAYS AND SHIPPING

SECOND REPORT OP STANDING COMMITTEE- PRIVILEGE, MR. J. H. HARRIS

LIB

John Power Howden

Liberal

Mr. J. P. HOWDEN (St. Boniface):

Mr. Speaker, the standing committee on railways and shipping owned, operated and controlled by the government, begs leave to present the following as its second report:

The standing committee on railways and shipping owned, operated and controlled by the government begs leave to present the following as its second report:

Your committee has considered the following items of the estimates referred to the committee on June 28, and approve the same, viz:

445-Maritime Freight Rates Act, Canadian National Railways, eastern lines, $2,000,000.

1764 COMMONS

Railways and Shipping-Second Report

446-Maritime Freight Rates Act, Railways other than Canadian National Railways, $800,000.

458- Canadian National (West Indies) Steamships Limited, capital advanced, $21,000.

459- Canadian National Railway Company, $15,000,000.

460- Prince Edward Island Car Ferry and Terminals, $327,000.

Topic:   RAILWAYS AND SHIPPING
Subtopic:   SECOND REPORT OP STANDING COMMITTEE- PRIVILEGE, MR. J. H. HARRIS
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CON

Joseph Henry Harris

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. J. H. HARRIS (Danforth):

On a question of the privileges of this house in relation to the report which has just been presented, I should like to make one or two observations and have your ruling in the matter, Mr. Speaker. First, the report just read was not read to the committee in accordance with the terms of the reference; second, the report is incorrect inasmuch as it speaks of approval, whereas in the committee the approval was given on division; and in the third place, the order of reference most clearly recites that copies of the evidence shall be printed for the use of the members. The evidence of the proceedings of the last meeting held by the committee has not yet been printed and there has been no opportunity for the members to peruse the printed report. That is the question of privilege which I raise on behalf of the house, and when that question is disposed of, Mr. Speaker, I purpose raising a question of personal privilege as a member of the committee. I therefore suggest that this report ought to be sent back to the committee for further consideration.

Topic:   RAILWAYS AND SHIPPING
Subtopic:   SECOND REPORT OP STANDING COMMITTEE- PRIVILEGE, MR. J. H. HARRIS
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LIB

John Power Howden

Liberal

Mr. HOWDEN:

This is not the final report but merely an interim report. It was submitted to representative members of the committee from the various sections of the house. The final report is to follow.

Topic:   RAILWAYS AND SHIPPING
Subtopic:   SECOND REPORT OP STANDING COMMITTEE- PRIVILEGE, MR. J. H. HARRIS
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CON

Joseph Henry Harris

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HARRIS (Danforth) :

Speaking again to the question, I am advised that the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Black), the hon. member for Rosedale (Mr. Jackman) and the hon. member for Lincoln (Mr. Lockhart) did not receive copies of the report. Through the courtesy of the chairman I was privileged to see the report before it was brought in to-day.

Topic:   RAILWAYS AND SHIPPING
Subtopic:   SECOND REPORT OP STANDING COMMITTEE- PRIVILEGE, MR. J. H. HARRIS
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LIB

Georges Parent (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER:

The house referred to the committee on railways and shipping, on June 28, resolutions 445, 446, 458, 459 and 460 of the estimates for the fiscal year 1940-41. The committee has submitted to the house a report approving these resolutions.

If this report is concurred in, these resolutions are adopted and there is no necessity of referring them to the committee of supply. The meaning of such a procedure would be that part of the estimates had been approved

by the house without having been considered by the committee of supply. This is against the principle laid down in standing order 60 which provides that no resolution for public aid or charge upon the people may be passed by the house until it has been referred to a committee of the whole. The report of the committee on railways and shipping not only cannot be concurred in, but it cannot be referred to the committee of supply because there are in it elements of an instruction; and, as May and Bourinot point out, pages 524 and 418 respectively, no instruction can be given to the committee of supply, as it can only consider the estimates recommended by the crown. Moreover, even if a motion were allowed to be made either to concur in the report or to refer these resolutions, no debate or amendment could be permitted on it, as such a motion does not come within the scope of standing order 38.

I must rule that the select committee's report, which consists only in the approval of certain estimates, cannot be debated at this stage of the proceedings when the Speaker is in the chair. A motion therefore must be made to refer the resolutions as part of the total estimates to the committee of supply, which will be free to consider them, and also to discuss if necessary the select committee's report.

Topic:   RAILWAYS AND SHIPPING
Subtopic:   SECOND REPORT OP STANDING COMMITTEE- PRIVILEGE, MR. J. H. HARRIS
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CON

Joseph Henry Harris

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HARRIS (Danforth):

I now rise to

a question of personal privilege as a member of the committee. This report does not carry out the order of reference, and it does not give to this house what the reference demanded in the order of June 27, which said:

. . . report from time to time their observations and opinions thereon.

The "observations and opinions thereon" are not in any way in either of the reports reported upon. The matters discussed had to do with vital questions concerning this house and concerning Canada. It is clearly shown that since the Canadian National Railways had had six months' experience in which they had earned millions more than they budgeted for, the item of $15,000,000 is not required. It was forced through the committee on division, and this report did not mention anything of the division. It was also deposed that we were committing Canada's dollars-

Topic:   RAILWAYS AND SHIPPING
Subtopic:   SECOND REPORT OP STANDING COMMITTEE- PRIVILEGE, MR. J. H. HARRIS
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?

Some hon. MEMBERS:

Order.

Topic:   RAILWAYS AND SHIPPING
Subtopic:   SECOND REPORT OP STANDING COMMITTEE- PRIVILEGE, MR. J. H. HARRIS
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LIB

Georges Parent (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER:

I understood the hon.

member wished to speak to a question of personal privilege. He is not entitled to enter into a discussion of the merits of the report or give particulars with regard to the stand that might have been taken in the committee.

Closing oj Burma Road

These matters, as I have already indicated in the opinion I have given, may be discussed on the floor in committee of supply when the report goes there.

Topic:   RAILWAYS AND SHIPPING
Subtopic:   SECOND REPORT OP STANDING COMMITTEE- PRIVILEGE, MR. J. H. HARRIS
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CON

Joseph Henry Harris

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HARRIS (Danforth):

If I may be permitted to refer to rule 38, debatable motions, paragraph (m):

. . . and such other motion, made upon routine proceedings, as may be required for the observance of the proprieties of the house, the maintenance of its authority, the appointment or conduct of its officers, the management of its business, the arrangements of its proceedings-

Topic:   RAILWAYS AND SHIPPING
Subtopic:   SECOND REPORT OP STANDING COMMITTEE- PRIVILEGE, MR. J. H. HARRIS
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LIB

Georges Parent (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER:

Order. What the hon. member is referring to may be perfectly correct when there is a motion before the house, but there is no motion before the house now.

Topic:   RAILWAYS AND SHIPPING
Subtopic:   SECOND REPORT OP STANDING COMMITTEE- PRIVILEGE, MR. J. H. HARRIS
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CON

Joseph Henry Harris

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HARRIS (Danforth):

I conclude,

then, by saying that my personal privilege as a member of this committee is infringed in that the effect of our deliberations is precluded from reaching this chamber in the way it ought, and this reflects on me as a member of this House of Commons, by conveying the impression that I as a member of the committee approved of a report of which I did not approve.

Topic:   RAILWAYS AND SHIPPING
Subtopic:   SECOND REPORT OP STANDING COMMITTEE- PRIVILEGE, MR. J. H. HARRIS
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PRINTING OF PARLIAMENT

RECOMMENDATION IN FIRST REPORT THAT CERTAIN DOCUMENTS BE NOT PRINTED

NAT

Richard Burpee Hanson (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Hon. R. B. HANSON (Leader of the Opposition):

Yesterday the hon. member

for Chambly-Rouville (Mr. Dupuis) presented a report from the joint committee of both houses on the printing of parliament. It is set out on pages 231 and following pages of Votes and Proceedings. It includes a long list of documents, with the recommendation that none of these be printed. I am of the opinion that on principle a good many of these reports need not be printed, but I wonder if we could not make some arrangement in respect to this list and perhaps have a list agreed upon, because in my opinion some of these reports should be printed. Some of my friends have taken exception to the terms of the report; concurrence has not been moved, so that as yet there has been no opportunity to debate the matter. The government might provide some opportunity for discussion of the matter; or we might have a conference on it.

Topic:   PRINTING OF PARLIAMENT
Subtopic:   RECOMMENDATION IN FIRST REPORT THAT CERTAIN DOCUMENTS BE NOT PRINTED
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LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Prime Minister; Secretary of State for External Affairs; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):

I shall be glad to look

into the matter and have a word with my hon. friend regarding it.

Topic:   PRINTING OF PARLIAMENT
Subtopic:   RECOMMENDATION IN FIRST REPORT THAT CERTAIN DOCUMENTS BE NOT PRINTED
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CLOSING OF BURMA ROAD

STATEMENT OF LORD HALIFAX AS TO CANADA BEING KEPT INFORMED


On the orders of the day:


July 19, 1940