June 21, 1940

LIB

Norman Alexander McLarty (Minister of Labour)

Liberal

Mr. McLARTY:

And the metal trades.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF
Subtopic:   ALLEVIATION OF UNEMPLOYMENT AND AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS-UNDERTAKINGS IN GENERAL INTEREST AND FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE TO PROVINCES
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NAT

John Ritchie MacNicol

National Government

Mr. MacNICOL:

They will be instructed how to make drawings of the different things they are working on; they will be instructed in the welding of metals and in die and tool making. In many of these trades there is an acute shortage of mechanics at the present time because during the last two or three years many mechanics have gone back to the old country. Will there be instruction in laboratory practice?

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF
Subtopic:   ALLEVIATION OF UNEMPLOYMENT AND AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS-UNDERTAKINGS IN GENERAL INTEREST AND FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE TO PROVINCES
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LIB

Norman Alexander McLarty (Minister of Labour)

Liberal

Mr. McLARTY:

I do not think that that will be studied in any great degree; I think it will relate pretty largely to the practical

Unemployment Relief

trades, to training in the metal trades and in tools and diemaking, in which, as the hon. member suggests, there is a very small surplus. I would not want to be too specific about laboratory practice, but there will doubtless be some.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF
Subtopic:   ALLEVIATION OF UNEMPLOYMENT AND AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS-UNDERTAKINGS IN GENERAL INTEREST AND FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE TO PROVINCES
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NAT

John Ritchie MacNicol

National Government

Mr. MacNICOL:

I had in mind the various items that enter into the construction of steel, of which we shall require such a large production in this war. There will be some instruction in foundry practice, I presume, because all our technical schools now have foundry furnaces within their walls, and I presume there will be also instruction in electricity and in the making of the various parts used in aeroplanes, diesel engines and so forth. If so, that is fine; the minister should be commended if such a programme is to be carried on. Such training of this kind will be very beneficial; it is a step in the right direction.

Under the bill that was passed in the United States instruction is to be given in the technical schools in four major courses of study in the various trades I have mentioned-steel, the metal trades, and so forth- and parallel instruction in electricity and allied subjects. I find in that bill something which I presume the minister also has in mind-that in training men regard will be had to supply and demand. On the other side they are very particular to see that there will not be four or five qualified tool and diemakers applying for the one job, and they have arranged to have regard to the law of supply and demand. But in this country the demand in my judgment will, owing to munition production, greatly exceed the supply, so I do not think we need to worry very much about an over-supply. If the minister keeps that consideration in -mind, his bill will perhaps be more effective than it otherwise would be.

Perhaps under this bill the department would undertake to keep a record of those about to graduate-I am speaking particularly of factory employees-so that they might be placed in factories which will be requiring their services or which will shortly be called upon to produce war equipment. The main purpose of the bill this session is altogether different from the purpose of the previous bill, because under this bill the purpose is to provide a sufficient number of qualified mechanics in all the trades allied with steel and iron production so that we shall have a sufficient number of men available to produce munitions and all the other equipment that is necessary to win the war.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF
Subtopic:   ALLEVIATION OF UNEMPLOYMENT AND AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS-UNDERTAKINGS IN GENERAL INTEREST AND FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE TO PROVINCES
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LIB

Norman Alexander McLarty (Minister of Labour)

Liberal

Mr. McLARTY:

I thank the hon. member for Davenport (Mr. MacNicol) again for his constructive suggestions. I am advised that the arrangements for the use of the technical schools this summer call for 4,000 to 4,500 for courses in instruction, and we are going to endeavour to speed that up. We are going to use instructors in technical schools who have been kind enough to offer their services. We are also going to have instructors from different plants. We have already made a survey of the amount of labour immediately required not only in each plant but in each portion of each plant, and we are endeavouring in every possible way to speed up the training in order to meet the demand.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF
Subtopic:   ALLEVIATION OF UNEMPLOYMENT AND AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS-UNDERTAKINGS IN GENERAL INTEREST AND FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE TO PROVINCES
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CCF

Angus MacInnis

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. MacINNIS:

Since the beginning of the war there has been a continuous increase in the cost of living. That increase is not yet burdensome to persons with wages or salaries over $1,500 or running into several thousand dollars, but it has a very important bearing on the standard of living of those who must live on $200 or $300 a year, as many of the unemployed have to do. Has there been any conference with the provincial authorities with a view to increasing the relief allowance to take care of the increased cost of living?

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF
Subtopic:   ALLEVIATION OF UNEMPLOYMENT AND AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS-UNDERTAKINGS IN GENERAL INTEREST AND FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE TO PROVINCES
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LIB

Norman Alexander McLarty (Minister of Labour)

Liberal

Mr. McLARTY:

The position of the

dominion government is this, and I think perhaps I have stated it before. The provincial governments and the municipalities are the ones that fix the quantum of individual relief. Our arrangement with all the provinces except New Brunswick is that we shall contribute dollar for dollar with the province. Answering the specific question which the hon. member has asked, there has been no conference between the dominion and provincial authorities relative to an increase in the quantum of individual relief as a result of any rise in the cost of living, the reason being that that is purely a matter of provincial and municipal determination, we simply paying dollar for dollar with the province.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF
Subtopic:   ALLEVIATION OF UNEMPLOYMENT AND AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS-UNDERTAKINGS IN GENERAL INTEREST AND FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE TO PROVINCES
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CCF

Angus MacInnis

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. MacINNIS:

Has the federal Department of Labour been approached by any province for an increased grant in aid owing to the situation which I have just mentioned? It is very well known to the house, I think, that many provinces are in such a position that they cannot increase their grants or aid to the municipalities until they first receive increased aid from the federal authority.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF
Subtopic:   ALLEVIATION OF UNEMPLOYMENT AND AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS-UNDERTAKINGS IN GENERAL INTEREST AND FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE TO PROVINCES
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LIB

Norman Alexander McLarty (Minister of Labour)

Liberal

Mr. McLARTY:

I think perhaps the hon.

gentleman is putting the cart before the horse. Answering offhand, the dominion Department of Labour, so far as I know, has not been approached bv any province relative to the

Unemployment Relief

quantum of individual relief, the reason being that the quantum of relief is within the sole determination of the province. If they decide to increase that quantum, then under our arrangement we have to meet the province dollar for dollar, but we cannot ourselves step in and fix the quantum of relief.

Mr. MaeINNIS: I think the minister misunderstood my question. I was speaking not of the individual amount of relief given to recipients but of the increased burden on the provinces because of the rise there has been in the cost of living.

Mr. MeLARTY: I do not think any province has suggested an increase over the 40-40-20 arrangement that was entered into last year. Speaking purely from recollection, my answer would be that there has been no representation made by any province that the dominion should absorb a larger proportion of the total relief.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF
Subtopic:   ALLEVIATION OF UNEMPLOYMENT AND AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS-UNDERTAKINGS IN GENERAL INTEREST AND FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE TO PROVINCES
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CON

John George Diefenbaker

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DIEFENBAKER:

During the past

several weeks various relief recipients in Saskatchewan have received notice that the amount of their relief is to be considerably reduced. But if I understood the minister correctly he stated the other evening that no notice had been given by this government to the provincial governments of any anticipated reduction this year in the amount of relief that would account for the notices being sent out by the provincial administrators of relief.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF
Subtopic:   ALLEVIATION OF UNEMPLOYMENT AND AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS-UNDERTAKINGS IN GENERAL INTEREST AND FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE TO PROVINCES
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LIB

Norman Alexander McLarty (Minister of Labour)

Liberal

Mr. McLARTY:

I do not want to interrupt my hon. friend, but he will remember that in the notice sent out to the provinces was the suggestion that in view of the vast war expenditure some maximum might have to be applied. I added that the intention was to apply that maximum in those provinces in which war orders are to a great degree resulting in a reduction in the amount of relief required, and suggested that I did not think Saskatchewan was in that class.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF
Subtopic:   ALLEVIATION OF UNEMPLOYMENT AND AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS-UNDERTAKINGS IN GENERAL INTEREST AND FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE TO PROVINCES
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CON

John George Diefenbaker

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DIEFENBAKER:

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF
Subtopic:   ALLEVIATION OF UNEMPLOYMENT AND AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS-UNDERTAKINGS IN GENERAL INTEREST AND FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE TO PROVINCES
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LIB

Norman Alexander McLarty (Minister of Labour)

Liberal

Mr. McLARTY:

I do not wish to withhold from the committee any information that I have, but this bill has not yet been passed; as soon as it is passed, estimates will be received from the various provinces as to their requirements. I suggest that the hon. member's question would be more appropriately asked upon the estimates. I cannot answer his question at the present time, much as I should like to do so.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF
Subtopic:   ALLEVIATION OF UNEMPLOYMENT AND AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS-UNDERTAKINGS IN GENERAL INTEREST AND FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE TO PROVINCES
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LIB

Thomas Vien (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

The CHAIRMAN:

Although there is a certain connection between section 3, which is now under consideration, and the question which was asked by the hon. member, I do not believe that, in view of the fact that the estimates are to be studied, it would be quite in order to discuss the amount to which he has referred, namely the estimate of $24,000,000 for relief, because this will come up in due course when the estimates are before the committee.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF
Subtopic:   ALLEVIATION OF UNEMPLOYMENT AND AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS-UNDERTAKINGS IN GENERAL INTEREST AND FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE TO PROVINCES
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LIB

Norman Alexander McLarty (Minister of Labour)

Liberal

Mr. McLARTY:

I did not mean to take advantage of any rule of order. I merely suggested to the hon. member that I thought, if he could defer his question until the estimates come up, I would be able to give him an answer, which I am unable to do to-day.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF
Subtopic:   ALLEVIATION OF UNEMPLOYMENT AND AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS-UNDERTAKINGS IN GENERAL INTEREST AND FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE TO PROVINCES
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LIB

Thomas Vien (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

The CHAIRMAN:

I wanted simply to point out to the members of the committee that it is undesirable to go at too great length into items of the estimates, although some latitude is quite in order, as has been recognized heretofore.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF
Subtopic:   ALLEVIATION OF UNEMPLOYMENT AND AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS-UNDERTAKINGS IN GENERAL INTEREST AND FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE TO PROVINCES
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CON

John George Diefenbaker

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DIEFENBAKER:

Without reference, then, to the question of estimates, the point I am trying to make is this, that under this legislation what the government asks is a blank cheque to proceed with measures for the alleviation of unemployment and agricultural distress.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF
Subtopic:   ALLEVIATION OF UNEMPLOYMENT AND AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS-UNDERTAKINGS IN GENERAL INTEREST AND FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE TO PROVINCES
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LIB

Norman Alexander McLarty (Minister of Labour)

Liberal

Mr. McLARTY:

Nothing will be spent until the estimates are passed in this house. We are not asking for a blank cheque.

Unemployment Relief

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF
Subtopic:   ALLEVIATION OF UNEMPLOYMENT AND AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS-UNDERTAKINGS IN GENERAL INTEREST AND FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE TO PROVINCES
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CON

John George Diefenbaker

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DIEFENBAKER:

Surely the minister is in a position to give an estimate of the amount which he anticipates will be expended in the several provinces.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF
Subtopic:   ALLEVIATION OF UNEMPLOYMENT AND AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS-UNDERTAKINGS IN GENERAL INTEREST AND FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE TO PROVINCES
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LIB

Norman Alexander McLarty (Minister of Labour)

Liberal

Mr. McLARTY:

No. I regret, Mr. Chairman, I cannot give that to the hon. member to-day. But, as far as a blank cheque is concerned, not a cent will be spent which is not passed by this house, save and except under the Youth Training Act, which is a statutory amount.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF
Subtopic:   ALLEVIATION OF UNEMPLOYMENT AND AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS-UNDERTAKINGS IN GENERAL INTEREST AND FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE TO PROVINCES
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June 21, 1940