Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):

Go ahead and put it on the record.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. Fournier, Hull):

I would draw standing order 58 to the attention of the hon. member, where it is stated that speeches in committee of the whole must be strictly relevant to the item or clause under consideration. I do not believe the reading of a brief would be permissible, under a strict interpretation of the rule.

Mr. McLARTY:

I do not suggest that

what the hon. member is reading is not relevant, but I am suggesting that he might give us a digest rather than the full text.

Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):

Go ahead and read your brief.

Mr. MacINNIS:

I would draw to the

attention of the chair the fact that we are discussing a resolution preceding a bill. We are not discussing any particular section or subsection. The whole question of unemployment, and the application of unemployment

Unemployment Reliej-Mr. Gillis

and agriculture relief legislation, is open for discussion. I think the hon. member who, for ithe first time is presenting the case of the working classes in the maritime provinces, ought to be given an opportunity to place his case before the House of Commons.

Mr. GILLIS:

Mr. Chairman, my conception of the resolution before the committee, and particularly the first part of it, was that it dealt with unemployment. It would appear that the Department of Labour is asking for an appropriation of money for the alleviation of unemployment, and in order that the minister may fully understand the requirements af the situation I suggest that one of the first things he should know is the unemployment situation as it exists in the field.

I have read many reports on unemployment as it affects my own constituency, but in those reports I did not recognize the situation as I knew it. I did not recognize the situation from the report which had been drawn up by someone else. What I am endeavouring to do is to tell the Minister of Labour the story of labour when considered from the viewpoint of potential unemployment. Mines are being closed and the situation is growing worse. I should like to tell my story as I see it myself.

I want to draw this brief to the attention of the Department of Labour. For the past seven or eight years different ministers of the provincial government have done everything humanly possible to cure this situation. I do not say this with any political malice, but I believe absolutely that at the present time the Nova Scotia government is the British Empire Steel Corporation, especially as far as coal is concerned. That has been our experience. Not so long ago a mine in Thorbum, Nova Scotia, was to be closed. This meant that many men would be thrown on to the scrap-heap. The general manager of the Dominion Iron and Steel Company, Mr. H. J. Kelly, sat in with a delegation of citizens from that town. The head of the citizens' delegation asked Mr. Kelly if there was anything the provincial government could do to develop a mine in that area. I based my previous statement that as far as coal is concerned this company directs the provincial government upon what Mr. Kelly said to that committee. His answer was that as far as the government was concerned they had done everything they could, but the company had said there would be no new mine opened in that area.

The particular brief which I have before me emanates from a citizens' committee which was formed in Glace Bay. This was not drawn up by members of a union or by

workers alone. This committee was headed by Reverend Father McKinnon, a Roman Catholic priest. The Reverend Mr. Crew, an Anglican clergyman, was also a member. The Reverend W. T. Mercer, another clergyman, was a member. This committee represented a more or less united front as far as religion is concerned. There are approximately 900 men employed in this particular mine, and they have learned from their union that the mine will be totally closed down within eighteen months. There are many schools and churches in this locality, and the working people have a considerable investment in their community. Should this mine be closed down, it will be nothing less than a financial bombshell as far as the town of Glace Bay is concerned, because that town receives considerable revenue by way of taxation. The provincial minister of mines and his deputy came to Glace Bay and met the members of this committee. I was present at the sitting of the committee, and we went over the plans of the coal company and considered what prospects and possibilities there were to continue the operations of this particular colliery. We could receive no assurance that operations would be continued. I was then asked to bring up the matter before this house and draw it to the attention of the Minister of Labour. This brief is headed "Introductory brief " and reads:

This committee which is gathered here was selected at a large and representative citizens' meeting held in the legion hall, Passehendaele, Glace Bay, on the evening of April 8, 1940. The meeting was held as a result of the existing conditions in No. 11 colliery as affecting that community for the purpose of endeavouring to find some method to alleviate those conditions.

In the report of the royal commission respecting the coal mines of Nova Scotia which was made in 1932 (commonly called the Duncan report) certain definite proposals are recommended for the reallocation of coal areas and concentrations of the output of coal mines. As a result of the recommendations contained in the Duncan report and apparently with the approval of the government of Nova Scotia a situation has arisen in the No. 11 colliery which has become very acute. Present indications are that this mine will be totally abandoned in approximately eighteen months. A large percentage of the men employed in this colliery are so affected at the present time that no work is available for them and transfers to other collieries are a common occurrence.

We submit that the practice of transferring these men to other collieries operated by the Dominion Coal Company will not provide a practical solution to this problem. Twenty-two men who were previously employed in No. 11 colliery have been transferred to No. 4 colliery. No. 4 colliery is completely filled up at the present time, and there are no places available for any -more men. There is no development work being carried on in this mine but future operations will consist only of pillar work.

Unemployment Relief-Mr. Gillis

By way of explanation I would say that pillar work is done only when a mine is gradually folding up. This work is done only when it is considered a mine will eventually close. The brief continues:

Several men have also been transferred to No. 24 colliery. On April 10th, 13 pairs of men were without places in No. 24 colliery and another section in this mine is due to close in about two weeks which will displace another 10 pairs of men. In No. 2 colliery there are at the present time approximately 40 pairs of men without places and eighty per cent of the work in No. 2 colliery is pillar work. No. 1-B colliery is overcrowded at the present time ' due to the fact that a large number of men formerly employed in the reserve collieries have become transferred to this mine. There are now 40 pairs of men employed on each shift in No. 20 colliery and the company does not propose to employ any more men in that mine for the present. As No. 20 colliery is developed it will be used to take care of men who are displaced in No. 2 colliery.

Taking into consideration the conditions which exist in all these mines in the Glace Bay district, it can be clearly seen that the problem of providing employment for miners who are displaced in No. 11 colliery will not be solved by transferring these men to other collieries. There are at the present time approximately 800 men employed in No. 11 colliery, the great majority of whom live in the Passchendaele district. These men, together with their families and other residents of the district, make a total of approximately 3,000 persons who depend directly for their livelihood on the continued operation of No. 11 colliery. There are also many houses, halls, churches, schools and business establishments in this district which would in time be rendered useless if this mine were allowed to close without any adjustment being made. In addition to this the town of Glace Bay has in recent years carried on new development work in this district by providing the comunity with new sewer and water facilities.

The additional burden which would be placed upon the town of Glace Bay through unemployment caused by the gradual closing of No. 11 colliery would be one which the town is in no position to bear, and it would be impossible for the town to adequately cope with such a problem. We feel that such a situation should not be allowed to arise without a thorough investigation being made by those with the authority to make such an investigation into the possibilities of a continuation in operation of No. 11 colliery and also the possibility of the opening of a new coal mine in the same district.

We, therefore, respectively ask that an engineer with governmental authority conduct a thorough investigation into the conditions which exist in No. 11 colliery for the purpose of finding out what amount of coal is available for extraction in accordance with the terms of the leases granted to the Dominion Coal Company. If, as a result of this inquiry, it is discovered that the colliery will be worked out in a short time and closed down, we ask that every avenue possible be explored with the view to the opening of a new mine in the Passchendaele district.

The provincial minister of mines and his deputy are cooperating with the miners one

hundred per cent in an effort to find a solution to this problem. The leases held by the coal company are such that by the carrying on of certain operations these leases remain in force even though a mine may not be working. Therefore the company is in a position to hold the leases. The provincial government does not seem to have sufficient authority, or at least has not had up to date, to bring about a solution of this problem. Coal will probably be required in Europe. Press dispatches rep>ort that France is in a bad way as far as coal is concerned. Something should be done to develop those coal areas in Nova Scotia which are not being operated by the coal company at the present time.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. Fournier, Hull):

I am sorry to have to interrupt the hon. member, but he has spoken for forty minutes. He has, of course, the right to speak again on the resolution.

Mr. HOMUTH:

A great deal of leeway, Mr. Chairman, has been allowed to all the members ever since the house opened, and I think it is only right that the hon. member should be permitted to continue.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. Fournier, Hull):

Certainly, if it is the wish of the

committee.

Mr. GILLIS:

It is not my intention to occupy very much more time, Mr. Chairman. But I did want to tell that story, and I think it is the first time it has been told in that way in this house. We feel that it is the obligation of the government to see that the people who are trying to do something for themselves are protected, and with respect to the creation of monopolies we feel it is the obligation of the government to see that no special groups be given easy and fat franchises out of which to amass untold wealth at the expense of the people, whether these franchises have to do with the monopoly of money, minerals, waterfalls-or other forms of power. There are certain things that we must not pass over to individuals, and we feel that a national resource such as coal is one of those things. We believe it is the function of the government to see that every other business is properly conducted by charter from the government, and that it obeys the rules of the game and is not permitted to assume a monopoly of power as so many have already done. We remember the revelations of the price spreads committee, whose report showed that many things were wrong in Canada, rotten in fact; yet the findings of that committee have travelled to the silence and dust of the upper shelves and nothing has been

Unemployment Relief-Mr. Hlynka

done about them. We believe that it is the business of government in this country to equip the people with the instruments of freedom and then see to it that they have the full power to enjoy that freedom. We believe that it is the business of government in this country to make it possible for all to get enlightenment, without which no people can live in a free democracy, as is well exemplified by Germany at the present time. We want it clearly understood that it is not the possession of wealth and riches that we are objecting to so -much, but rather that wealth should enjoy freedom to control the economic processes of the country and stand in the way of the creation of other wealth by the people. They are the bottle neck through which new wealth must pass before it gets to the people.

As I said at the beginning of my remarks, we are looking to the governments of Canada as at present constituted to see to it that the development of the cooperative as it exists in the maritimes, where it is well away on the road to success, is protected against such monopolies as the coal company which I have attempted to describe here to-night. We believe it is the government's duty to see that the company is not in a position to cripple that movement by virtue of the fact that it holds economic power over the lives of the people in that particular section.

Mr. A. HLYNKA (Vegreville):

Mr. Chairman, may I first of all present to the committee a resolution sponsored by the United Farmers of Canada, Alberta section, signed by 2,049 members of that organization. The following is the text of the resolution:

Whereas there appears to be no provision in the present wheat board act to allow the board to make a further payment on wheat delivered to it from the 1939 crop;

And whereas conditions have changed considerably since the passing of the act and this country now faces the exigencies of war;

And whereas it appears to be an imperative necessity to maintain an adequate supply of agricultural products;

Therefore be it resolved that we the undersigned United Farmers of Canada, Alberta section, respectfully urge the dominion government. under the powers conferred upon it by the War Measures Act, to authorize the wheat board to make an additional payment on all wheat delivered to it from the 1939 crop, in time to enable the wheat producers to finance their seeding operations this spring and to carry on production efficiently during the duration of this war.

This resolution was passed some time ago, but the whole matter is as important as it ever was.

I do not think it is necessary for me to elaborate on this resolution, but I think the

[Mr. Gillis.l

minister should give this committee some idea of the attitude which the farmers of western Canada may expect from the government with regard to this question.

There has often been used on the floor of this house a word which has struck me, namely, the word "assistance". Neither our farmers in western Canada nor, it seems to me, the employees in this country, are asking for assistance. We are simply asking for what is due to us, and we believe that our farmers in western Canada are entitled to more than they are getting. With the gravity of war now much accentuated, we believe that unless the interests of the farmer are taken care of and protected in every way, unless agriculture which we all know to be our basic industry in this country is assisted, if you like, the morale of our people, as the hon. leader of our group has said, may not be strong enough or of just the type to carry us through the war.

It has seemed to me that a number of members on the government side have frequently referred to the state of war as if to excuse themselves from carrying out their obligations towards the farmers and the workers. But I want to emphasize the point, that the government at this time should not in any way use war as an excuse for not granting to our farmers in western Canada what is due to them.

In closing, I simply wish to add that unless our farmers are looked after better than they have been for the past ten years, I do not know that their morale will be high enough to carry us through this strenuous time.

Mr. E. G. HANSELL (Macleod) Mr. Chairman, I have listened with a good deal of interest to the speech of the hon. member for Cape Breton South (Mr. Gillis). In his presentation of the situation in the coal mining area in his riding, there is reflected the situation that exists in almost every coal mining area in this country. I congratulate the hon. member upon his speech, and I am quite certain that the House of Commons will find him a valuable member in championing the cause of the workers of this country, particularly the coal miners. I should like to say a great deal about the coal miners and the coal mining industry of Canada, but I shall reserve my remarks until the estimates dealing with coal subventions are before the committee of supply. I am convinced that the coal miners' problem cannot be solved until we are able to sell the coal. An hon. member has stated that there is a great deal of coal available, and yet the mines are, as he termed it, folding up. At the same time we know that

Unemployment Relief-Mr. Hansell

in Canada people and industry need coal. That is the peculiar anomaly of the whole situation.

This resolution is the kind of resolution which is presented, apparently, every year. It takes in a good deal of territory. It proposes a measure "to provide assistance in the alleviation of unemployment and agricultural distress." It is also for the purpose of "supplementing the measures taken by the provinces towards providing assistance to those in need." Further, it is for "establishing unemployed persons in employment." I am not sure that I know what that means, but I am under the impression that it means the setting up of employment bureaux. That is a good thing, provided the employment is available.

Then the resolution continues, "and training and fitting suitable persons for productive occupations." I believe that is what is generally termed the youth training scheme. We are all happy to have in these days a scheme of that kind, but I sometimes wonder whether it is extensive enough. Many of our young men are taking this youth training, but it seems to me that they are trained in more or less elementary types of work in the various trades. For instance, a young chap interested in mechanics goes to the youth training quarters and there learns how to tear down the engine of a motor car and put it back again; he then tries to find a job in a garage. I suggest to the minister that he may discover in Canada a great need for technical and expert men. As regards pattern-makers, for instance, I was told the other day that the men who were trained in years gone by in this vocation are growing old, some of them passing out of the picture; yet, because we have been going through ten years of depression and distress, there are few men now qualified to take their places. I understand that the same circumstances apply to the tool-making trade. I suggest that it might be well for the minister to spend some time and thought on the provision of more extensive training of our young men than they now obtain under the youth training scheme.

After all, one wonders just how these young men fare after they have taken the youth training which is offered to them. I wonder if the experience of the rest of the country confirms such facts as I know of in my own constituency. Young men take the youth training scheme, remaining for three or four months during the winter, or whatever the length of the course is, and then go home, and, apart from knowing a little bit more about the subjects which they have been studying, they are but little better off and are unable to find jobs. Therefore I suggest that the

basic need is something more than youth training. We in this comer of the house believe that the basic need is a proper adjustment of the present financial and economic arrangement of the country.

I do not think I will say anything more on this matter, except to ask the minister two questions. They are entirely distinct, and perhaps the minister can more readily answer them if I ask them one at a time.

Would the minister place on Hansard the amounts which have been granted under this act to the several provinces over the past five years?

Mr. McLARTY:

I should be glad to place upon the table a statement of the advances made during the past five years. I believe that the act came into operation in 1930. At any rate, I shall be glad to place on the table a statement of advances from that time.

Mr. HANSELL:

Would the minister care to place it on Hansard?

Mr. McLARTY:

I am willing to place it either on Hansard or on the table of the house.

Mr. HANSELL:

If it is placed on Hansard, people throughout the country will leam a little more about it.

My next question may seem to be a peculiar one, but I have thought quite a little about it. Is any record kept of the number of youths who have taken training under the youth training scheme and who have now enlisted in his majesty's forces?

Mr. McLARTY:

The details in connection with the youth training movement are fairly complete. I would appreciate it if my hon. friend would allow me to reserve an answer to th&t question until I can get the information definitely, but I believe, subject to correction, that there are such figures.

Mr. HANSELL:

If it would assist the minister, I could place the question on the order paper.

Mrs. D. W. NIELSEN (North Battleford):

I was pleased this evening to hear the Minister of Labour (Mr. McLarty) say that he did not intend to cut short the debate upon this resolution. In my opinion the resolution is one of the most important which as yet has come before this house. All of us are aware that the people of Canada are watching carefully the deliberations which are going on here. I feel sure that they have watched and listened with great interest to what this government intends to do with regard to the prosecution of the war. But I should like to draw attention to this fact, that whatever happens in Europe, whatever happens with regard to our delibera-

Unemployment Relief-Mrs. Nielsen

tions in this chamber, throughout the length and breadth of Canada every single day, three times a day, thousands of people are faced with this one great question, "When do we eat, and how?"

In the past, with regard to its domestic policy in looking after the people of this country who through no fault of their own find themselves destitute and without employment, the government has not an enviable record. Whenever it was suggested that money should be provided to assist those who were unemployed or to alleviate farm distress in the west, this government has replied "Where is the money to come from? There is no money." Well, I would point out that, when a war crisis appears, 1700,000,000 can be immediately found.

To many people in Canada the domestic crisis is one that looms as important in their minds as the war crisis. It affects the people of this country. It is vital to them, because the future of this country depends upon the welfare of its people. It is not so very long ago that we went through a great economic crisis. We found that the economic problem, the problem of unemployment, was not solved by this government. We had some of our best boys wandering from the east to the west, boys called vagrants. They were given very little assistance. We had farmers in the west facing a situation which was beyond them, and they were absolutely unable to cope with it. The province of Saskatchewan particularly was brought to bankruptcy and the people of Saskatchewan looked to the federal government for assistance. They were faced with the same question: Where is the money to come from? In the opinion of Doctor Weir, Minister of Health of British Columbia, the evidence available shows that at least a third, or more likely a half, of all our Canadian people are existing on incomes of less than $1,000 a year. When so many of our people are living on such an income, the question of health is going to be something which will be brought up before governments of the future as being a responsibility left over from these days. We are not attempting to do anything towards the solution of this problem.

The health of a nation depends upon two things. It depends upon the standard of living of its people and it depends upon adequate health services. This federal government has done nothing, as a federal matter, with regard to health services throughout the length and breadth of the country. The question of the standard of living of our people has also been sadly neglected. I believe that during the last war, during those four years of war, we Canadians lost 60.000 men. We have built a great

fMrs. Nielsen.]

memorial to them. They were soldiers who gave their lives in the great cause. Do hon. members realize that because of our lower standards of living, because of our lack of good health services, in the four years that followed 1931 we lost 70,000 more soldiers-little fellows this time, under a year old, struggling in the greatest battle of life? They lost out because this country did not equip them. These matters are a government responsibility. If we take into consideration also the mothers who gave their lives, we have in those four years a loss of 103,000 persons. Their names are not known. They are Canadian heroes who are "unwept, unhonoured and unsung"; and if this government does not accept its responsibility towards the people, I am afraid that in generations to come it is going to be held responsible for this serious situation.

Whatever else the common people lack, they have one great asset: The common people have common sense. And, thank goodness, they are beginning to use it. We know that, owing to this government's policy during these last few days, in the months to come the living conditions of the Canadian people are going to grow steadily worse. I have no hesitation whatever about saying that. I am sure that time will prove my statement correct. During these last few weeks we have appropriated $700,000,000 for the prosecution of the war, $750,000,000 for the payment of loans, and so on. This government, following the policy of the past, is raising this money by taxation and by borrowing. When the common people think of taxation, they think of what has been taxed in the past, and they realize that if this government taxes as it has always taxed, it will be the food, the clothing and the small pleasures of the common people which will be taxed, not the great wealth that lies in the hands of a few within this dominion. Therefore the living conditions of the people of Canada during the next few months are going to deteriorate.

We know also that, for the purpose of borrowing, this government will shackle generations yet unborn with a burden of debt which will be carried on to the future, and children not yet bom will bear the debt of this war as we to-day are bearing the debt of the last war. The common people realize these things. It was interesting to me the other evening to see that a bill was brought forward for the appropriation of $100,000 to provide for the parks and open spaces of this city. Yesterday I received a letter from the northern part of Saskatchewan. It is also quite interesting. I should like to read it to

Unemployment Relief-Mrs. Nielsen

the committee. It was sent to a man who is living away up in the northern bush. It

reads:

Dear Sir:

Due to the fact that the government is unable to obtain sufficient funds to finance the present cost of relief, I have received instructions that only the most needy cases are to receive assistance. You are therefore advised that no further relief will be given you and that from now on no assistance will be given you under any circumstances.

W. Schmidt,

District Inspector.

The man who received this letter writes to me as follows:

Enclosed find a letter which most of us on relief received this month in place of our order. Despite the fact that just now there is hardly any of us who have funds, we have been cut off. You know how it is up here. My case is soon explained. Last fall I threshed 290 bushels of wheat and 490 bushels of oats. I got 31 cents a bushel for my wheat. I had to pay $36 threshing bill, $14 for breaking, $13 for taxes and for some other expenses such as cutting twine and so on. For three months I received no relief. During last winter I had $5 a month relief for a family of five, three little children, three years, two years and one three months old. It looks as if that is the kind of payment we are getting for not voting liberal up here.

That is only one instance.

Mr. McLARTY:

Would the hon. member be kind enough to let me have a copy of that letter?

Mrs. NIELSEN:

I shall be most pleased to do so.