June 3, 1940

NAT

Ernest Edward Perley

National Government

Mr. PERLEY:

How about a non-resident landlord?

Topic:   WHEAT COOPERATIVE MARKETING
Subtopic:   CALCULATION OF INITIAL PAYMENTS TO SELLING AGENCIES-AUTHORITY FOR PAYMENT OF LLABILITIES AND ADMINISTRATIVE EXPENSES
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LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

Non-residence would

make no difference if he is entitled to a share of the crop.

Section as amended agreed to.

Sections 3, 4 and 5 agreed to.

Topic:   WHEAT COOPERATIVE MARKETING
Subtopic:   CALCULATION OF INITIAL PAYMENTS TO SELLING AGENCIES-AUTHORITY FOR PAYMENT OF LLABILITIES AND ADMINISTRATIVE EXPENSES
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CCF

Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):

What is meant by section 10, " coming into force"?

Topic:   WHEAT COOPERATIVE MARKETING
Subtopic:   CALCULATION OF INITIAL PAYMENTS TO SELLING AGENCIES-AUTHORITY FOR PAYMENT OF LLABILITIES AND ADMINISTRATIVE EXPENSES
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LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

Section 7 of the original act, just as it was. That should not be dropped.

Topic:   WHEAT COOPERATIVE MARKETING
Subtopic:   CALCULATION OF INITIAL PAYMENTS TO SELLING AGENCIES-AUTHORITY FOR PAYMENT OF LLABILITIES AND ADMINISTRATIVE EXPENSES
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NAT

Ernest Edward Perley

National Government

Mr. PERLEY:

I should like to propose an amendment, moved by myself, seconded by Mr. Ross (Souris):

That another section he added to the bill, numbered 6, to this effect:

"6. This act shall not be operative after the 1st day of August, 1940, other than for the purpose of winding up transactions on agreements entered into as between the minister and the cooperatives for the crop year 1939-40."

Topic:   WHEAT COOPERATIVE MARKETING
Subtopic:   CALCULATION OF INITIAL PAYMENTS TO SELLING AGENCIES-AUTHORITY FOR PAYMENT OF LLABILITIES AND ADMINISTRATIVE EXPENSES
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LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

Speaking to the suggestion, I should like to reply to some of the remarks made by the hon. member for Qu'Appelle (Mr. Perley) a few minutes ago. A statement which has been read to the committee as having been presented to the government by the Bracken committee last year is, of course, a correct statement of that submission at that time. But if hon. members will examine Hansard I think they will find that when this legislation was placed on the statute books last year, I stated to the house '*hat

fMr. Gardiner.]

members of that committee, first, those representative of the pool organizations and, following that, those representative of other elevator companies, came to me; and I think in fact I had placed on Hansard last year written statements from them suggesting that if this legislation were put on the statute books they would make use of it if circumstances so warranted. The legislation as then drafted, was placed on the statute books, the only difference now being the difference we have made by changing the different sections that have been changed by the committee tonight, and the last section of the bill as indicated here was a section to the effect that this legislation would come into effect only on proclamation. The only reason why it has been in effect during this last year is that every one of the pool organizations asked to have it brought into effect. The government did not bring it into effect of its own volition.

Topic:   WHEAT COOPERATIVE MARKETING
Subtopic:   CALCULATION OF INITIAL PAYMENTS TO SELLING AGENCIES-AUTHORITY FOR PAYMENT OF LLABILITIES AND ADMINISTRATIVE EXPENSES
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NAT

Ernest Edward Perley

National Government

Mr. PERLEY:

That is last year?

Topic:   WHEAT COOPERATIVE MARKETING
Subtopic:   CALCULATION OF INITIAL PAYMENTS TO SELLING AGENCIES-AUTHORITY FOR PAYMENT OF LLABILITIES AND ADMINISTRATIVE EXPENSES
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LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

The grain year we are now in. Every one of the pool organizations and every one of the thirty-seven elevator companies organized under it asked to have it brought into effect. On the request of those organizations it was brought into effect, and they have made use of it. It would not be going too far to say that a considerable amount of wheat has been marketed under it this year, when one takes into consideration all the circumstances. Of the wheat that was delivered between the time the farmers started to thresh last fall and, say, December 1, I would say 95 per cent was delivered when the price was below 70 cents a bushel; and during that period of time any farmer who delivered wheat to an elevator could get 70 cents a bushel from the government for up to 5,000 bushels. Therefore there was no particular reason for him to deliver any of his wheat to an organization where he could get an advance of only 60 cents a bushel. So during all the time wheat was under 70 cents, naturally deliveries were made to the wheat board; but during the part of the season when wheat was above 70 cents, a few farmers may have decided that they would like to try out a cooperative organization which they themselves controlled rather than simply market through a board set up by the government.

So I say there is nothing strange about the fact that not very much wheat was delivered under this legislation this year. Perhaps the fact that any wheat was delivered is more a matter that should be explained than the fact that there was so little of it. Some other

Wheat Cooperative Marketing

year, if farmers knew they could always market .their wheat at, let us say, 80 cents a bushel or more, and there was one piece of legislation under which the advance would be 60 cents if the farmers set up their own organization while there was other legislation under which the government would take the wheat and pay in advance of 70 cents, then there might be a choice made as between the two if the farmers believed that in all probability all the wheat would be sold at about the same price and they wanted to find out which system would be the better under which to market their grain.

Someone has said that this is not a cooperative measure. In reply I would say that with the exception of this there is no system of handling grain in Canada to-day that does provide for cooperation. We have wheat pools, it is true, but they are all operating elevator companies which are just like any other elevator companies.

Topic:   WHEAT COOPERATIVE MARKETING
Subtopic:   CALCULATION OF INITIAL PAYMENTS TO SELLING AGENCIES-AUTHORITY FOR PAYMENT OF LLABILITIES AND ADMINISTRATIVE EXPENSES
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?

Thomas Miller Bell

Mr. COLD WELL:

They are owned by the farmers, though.

Topic:   WHEAT COOPERATIVE MARKETING
Subtopic:   CALCULATION OF INITIAL PAYMENTS TO SELLING AGENCIES-AUTHORITY FOR PAYMENT OF LLABILITIES AND ADMINISTRATIVE EXPENSES
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LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

They do not take the wheat, except under this bill, on a cooperative .plan. They are receiving wheat like anyone else, for delivery to the wheat board. In other words, they are operating the handling facilities in order to take wheat from the farmer and deliver it to the wheat board, just as any other elevator company does. So there is no other legislation under which anyone is operating a cooperative. This legislation says to any farmer, "You can drive into any elevator that has organized itself, or along with others, to set up a central selling agency; and when you drive into the elevator you can say that you are going to take a 60 cent advance and put your wheat in with the wheat of all the other farmers who do the same thing. That wheat will go to the central selling agency which you select," and the farmers who send their wheat to that central selling agency are cooperating with one another in taking an advance of 60 cents and allowing their w'heat to be sold by that agency. Each one is benefiting by the fact that they have cooperated in so marketing their grain and may obtain an interim payment, which is provided by the bill, with a final payment later on.

In other words, this legislation sets up a system entirely different from any other system under any other piece of legislation, and it provides a means of testing out three different methods, if our legislation and our controls remain as they are to-day. First there is the wheat board system; then there is the cooperative system under this legislation, and finally there is the open market system as it is

operated through the grain exchange. These three systems have been in operation during this last year; and I repeat that with the price below 70 cents during the greater part of this year, nothing could have been expected but that most of the wheat would have been delivered to the wheat board. The farmers saw no advantage in doing anything else this year, except in regard to a small part of the wheat.

I suggest that this amendment should not pass at this time and that this statute should be allowed to remain in operation. If no one wants to use it; if as my hon. friend suggests, the wheat pools do not wTant to use it; if none of the elevator companies want to use it and none of the farmers want to use it, the solution is very simple. They do not need to deliver wheat under it; then it will not be used. They do not need to form central selling agencies under it; then these agencies will not be set up. The agreements are for only one year; and if none of these organizations want to take advantage of this legislation, they need not make the agreement next year. But I do not know why the hon. member for Qu'Appelle suggests that we should deprive these .people of the right to use it if they so desire. Simply to read a statement made to the government before this legislation was drafted, to the effect that someone did not want it then, is not at all an argument, since most of the grain handling organizations in western Canada have used the legislation this year. Apparently they did want it; it was not used until afteT they had asked the government to bring it into operation, and they have been using it from that time up to the present.

Topic:   WHEAT COOPERATIVE MARKETING
Subtopic:   CALCULATION OF INITIAL PAYMENTS TO SELLING AGENCIES-AUTHORITY FOR PAYMENT OF LLABILITIES AND ADMINISTRATIVE EXPENSES
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SC

Robert Fair

Social Credit

Mr. FAIR:

Would this act be used if the limitation of 5,000 bushels had not been placed in the wheat board act?

Topic:   WHEAT COOPERATIVE MARKETING
Subtopic:   CALCULATION OF INITIAL PAYMENTS TO SELLING AGENCIES-AUTHORITY FOR PAYMENT OF LLABILITIES AND ADMINISTRATIVE EXPENSES
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LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

I do not know that I am in a position to answer that question. It was used, and the 5,000 bushel provision was in the act. I understand that some wheat was delivered under this legislation even apart from the 5,000 bushels.

Topic:   WHEAT COOPERATIVE MARKETING
Subtopic:   CALCULATION OF INITIAL PAYMENTS TO SELLING AGENCIES-AUTHORITY FOR PAYMENT OF LLABILITIES AND ADMINISTRATIVE EXPENSES
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CCF

Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):

I am inclined to think the minister cannot make a virtue out of the fact that some of the wheat handling organizations in western Canada have made use of this statute. There are two very simple reasons for that. The first, of course, is that if their competitors were going to use it, they had to use it as well. Take the pools as an illustration. If the line elevator companies were going. to come under this legislation the pools had to be prepared so that if one of their customers came in-

Wheat Cooperative Marketing

Topic:   WHEAT COOPERATIVE MARKETING
Subtopic:   CALCULATION OF INITIAL PAYMENTS TO SELLING AGENCIES-AUTHORITY FOR PAYMENT OF LLABILITIES AND ADMINISTRATIVE EXPENSES
Permalink
LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

The first to ask to come in were the pools.

Topic:   WHEAT COOPERATIVE MARKETING
Subtopic:   CALCULATION OF INITIAL PAYMENTS TO SELLING AGENCIES-AUTHORITY FOR PAYMENT OF LLABILITIES AND ADMINISTRATIVE EXPENSES
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LIB

James Lester Douglas

Liberal

Mr. DOUGLAS (Weybum):

Quite so, because the pools knew perfectly well that many of the line elevator companies would come under this legislation.

Topic:   WHEAT COOPERATIVE MARKETING
Subtopic:   CALCULATION OF INITIAL PAYMENTS TO SELLING AGENCIES-AUTHORITY FOR PAYMENT OF LLABILITIES AND ADMINISTRATIVE EXPENSES
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LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

No; it was not in operation at all. The act had to come into force by proclamation.

Topic:   WHEAT COOPERATIVE MARKETING
Subtopic:   CALCULATION OF INITIAL PAYMENTS TO SELLING AGENCIES-AUTHORITY FOR PAYMENT OF LLABILITIES AND ADMINISTRATIVE EXPENSES
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LIB

James Lester Douglas

Liberal

Mr. DOUGLAS (Weybum):

But they knew it had been passed.

Topic:   WHEAT COOPERATIVE MARKETING
Subtopic:   CALCULATION OF INITIAL PAYMENTS TO SELLING AGENCIES-AUTHORITY FOR PAYMENT OF LLABILITIES AND ADMINISTRATIVE EXPENSES
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LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

It was not in operation, and they asked to have it proclaimed.

Topic:   WHEAT COOPERATIVE MARKETING
Subtopic:   CALCULATION OF INITIAL PAYMENTS TO SELLING AGENCIES-AUTHORITY FOR PAYMENT OF LLABILITIES AND ADMINISTRATIVE EXPENSES
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LIB

James Lester Douglas

Liberal

Mr. DOUGLAS (Weybum):

But the pools knew it had been passed.

Topic:   WHEAT COOPERATIVE MARKETING
Subtopic:   CALCULATION OF INITIAL PAYMENTS TO SELLING AGENCIES-AUTHORITY FOR PAYMENT OF LLABILITIES AND ADMINISTRATIVE EXPENSES
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LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. GARDINER:

My hon. friend is putting up an argument to the effect that the pools had to come in because they knew the elevator companies were going to come in. The elevator companies did not suggest coming in until the pools came along and asked to have this act proclaimed, and they formed their organizations later.

Topic:   WHEAT COOPERATIVE MARKETING
Subtopic:   CALCULATION OF INITIAL PAYMENTS TO SELLING AGENCIES-AUTHORITY FOR PAYMENT OF LLABILITIES AND ADMINISTRATIVE EXPENSES
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June 3, 1940